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Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

Gran lima es el sufrimiento, y para mucha luz el padecer tinieblas

English translation:

Suffering is a great leveller, and out of darkness comes great light

Added to glossary by Eliza Ariadni Kalfa
Oct 3, 2017 15:06
6 yrs ago
Spanish term

Gran lima es el sufrimiento, y para mucha luz el padecer tinieblas

Spanish to English Art/Literary Religion
"Gran lima es el sufrimiento, y para mucha luz el padecer tinieblas", decía Juan de la Cruz.

I can't seem to find this quote by St John of the Cross in English anywhere online, and I'm having trouble coming up with a similar tone in English. Anyone care to give it a go? Thanks!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 Suffering is a great leveller, and out of darkness comes great light
3 +1 suffering is a great forger of character, and enduring darkness will show you great light
4 abandonment is a steel file and the endurance of darkness leads to great light
4 one has to struggle through darkness to discover the light at the end of the tunnel

Discussion

Charles Davis Oct 4, 2017:
@Robert and Eliza It's a pleasure :)

I just want to qualify one point. I said lima is a lexicalised metonym, but actually, in its lexicalised sense of a textual correction, it is both a metonym and a metaphor. It's a metonym because the object, lima (file), is used to refer to the action (filing or smoothing) or that which is filed ("tomando la causa por el efecto", as the 1734 dictionary says), and it's a metaphor because the "filing" is metaphorical: you correct a text as you file a metal object ("as it were Filing of it", as Stevens says). St John then takes what is already a lexicalised metaphor and uses it as an active metaphor: loneliness corrects imperfections of the soul just as printers correct (metaphorically "file") textual errors.

The main point is that lima was lexicalised in this sense of text correction; that is, what had begun as a metaphor had become part of the language, with a fixed meaning, no longer experienced as a metaphor. We know this is so, because it appears in dictionaries with that definition. St John's metaphor (the vehicle of his metaphor) was lima as correction, not lima as file. So I don't think it should be translated as "file".
Eliza Ariadni Kalfa (asker) Oct 3, 2017:
Many thanks, Charles, and all for this interesting discussion.
Robert Carter Oct 3, 2017:
@Charles Thanks for that, very interesting. I was hoping you might help sort this out :-)
Charles Davis Oct 3, 2017:
Lima = text correction, used here as metaphor In this period, lima was a lexicalised metonym (if you'll pardon the expression) meaning "correction", specifically correction of writing. It is an extension of its meaning as a file for filing metal, smoothing rough edges, as has been said. Covarrubias already includes this meaning in his Tesoro of 1611:
Lima se toma algunas vezes por la correccion y emienda que se haze en la escritura.

John Stevens also includes this meaning in his English-Spanish dictionary (1706):
a File as Smiths use; thence of any Writing, as it were Filing of it.

And it's listed in the first RAE dictionary (1734) as a meaning of lima in its own right:
Figuradamente, y tomando la causa por el efecto, es el último pulimiento, retoque ò emienda, que se da a qualquier obra, y particularmente a las de entendimiento.

This meaning of lima, now obsolete, is still listed in the DLE.

I'm quite sure this is what St John means by it here. Since it was already lexicalised in Spanish in this sense, whereas "file" wasn't and isn't in English, I think it should be translated as corrective.
Andrew Wallace Oct 3, 2017:
@neilmac I take your point. However, that polysemy can simply be eradicated with the insertion of "steel" before "file". After all, in my experience at least, all good files are made of steel.

As with "lima", the use of "steel file" is in itself figurative and its metaphorical meaning here does not appear difficult to ascertain.
Robert Carter Oct 3, 2017:
@Neil Actually, this might not even refer to "limar" at all; the word "lima" has at least two other meanings. I was simply posting an earlier translation, and, not being a religious scholar, I have no idea what the author had in mind.
neilmac Oct 3, 2017:
File ... presents two issues from my point of view. One is polysemy, as it can mean a computer file or the kind you keep in a filing cabinet, as well as the tool. So, I think a figurative rendition is more appropriate for this context. However that's just my opinion, and I have no vested interest other than the kudoz points now at stake, having posted my stab at it.
Andrew Wallace Oct 3, 2017:
@neilmac

Is that not what a file does? Smooth out rough edges?
Andrew Wallace Oct 3, 2017:
I see now that the quote seems to be taken from a passage of dialogue in Tomas Morales' Forja de Hombres. So the misquote by the author may very well be on purpose to suit his ends as narrator.

So I think you're right to replace abandonment with suffering.
neilmac Oct 3, 2017:
@Robert File? Schmile! "Limar asperezas" (smooth out rough edges), which is where I suspect this metaphor comes from, can be rendered much more effectively without taking a blunt instrument to it.
Eliza Ariadni Kalfa (asker) Oct 3, 2017:
Thank you all! I'm liking all the entries, I think I will go with Andrew's but replace 'abandonment' with 'suffering'!
Robert Carter Oct 3, 2017:
I found this version of the quote, which makes more sense to me: "Dios lo hizo bien, pues, en fin, es lima el desamparo, y para gran luz el padecer tinieblas." http://www.es.catholic.net/op/vercapitulo/5761/www.parroquia...
The English version reads "God has done it for our good; for loneliness is a file, and to suffer darkness is the way to great light."
https://books.google.com.mx/books?isbn=1602064296

Proposed translations

+2
40 mins
Selected

Suffering is a great leveller, and out of darkness comes great light

Cf. Death the leveller.
"Life is a great leveller."

Leveller (US leveler)
NOUN 1. A person or thing that levels something.
I think this is closer to the meaning of "lima", as a file is something which smoothes off rough edges, i.e. it makes things label, evens them up.

NB: I haven't given so much thought to the second part of the phrase, which I think should actually be posted as a separate query...-

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2017-10-03 15:52:37 GMT)
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Sorry. Dragon typo: "label" sould read "level"...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 47 mins (2017-10-03 15:53:49 GMT)
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And "should" is missing an "h", as I typed it in a hurry...
Why is there no "edit" button for kudoz afterthoughts?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2017-10-04 07:24:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

= figuratively smoothes off rough edges, as in in Charles quoted definition from 1783: "el último pulimiento, retoque ò emienda, que se da a qualquier obra,... "
Example sentence:

In England, as I dare say you know, sir, the law is a great leveller.

Sport is a great leveller and it is a uniting force ...

Reference:

http://www.bartleby.com/101/288.html

http://www.haverhillecho.co.uk/news/nature-is-a-great-leveller-in-more-ways-than-one-1-451976

Peer comment(s):
agree patinba : Neat and to the point.
23 mins
Cheers!
agree AllegroTrans : Yes sir, I dare say
6 hrs
:)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
18 mins

suffering is a great forger of character, and enduring darkness will show you great light

To start the ball rolling

The Inheritance of God's Blessing: The Heritage of Christian Values
https://books.google.com.ar/books?isbn=1412212456
Marvin R. McKim - 2003 - ‎Reference
It was written that suffering forges character within a person. John, in speakingwith Abraham,recalled how his brothers, and Margaret Reed, and he had endured ...
Is God Cruel? - Quora
https://www.quora.com/Is-God-cruel
Look humans we are selfish, so God allowing suffering forges character, and makes you tender hearted or compassionated toward others. We are hard headed,
Peer comment(s):
agree neilmac : Yes, I'd leave the steel file in the toolbox for this one....
11 mins
Thanks Neil! I thought so too.
Something went wrong...
14 mins

abandonment is a steel file and the endurance of darkness leads to great light

God has done well, for, after all, "abandonment is a steel file and the endurance of darkness leads to great light".

According to The Collected Works of St John of the Cross translated by Kieran Kavanaugh and Otilio Rodriguez.

The translation seems very well worded to me.

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Note added at 19 mins (2017-10-03 15:26:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or rather, this link:
https://books.google.cz/books?isbn=0935216936

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 24 mins (2017-10-03 15:30:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As mentioned by Robert Carter in the comments, the actual quote in Spanish should be "es lima el desamparo, y para gran luz el padecer tinieblas"
Reference:

http://https://books.google.cz/books?id=1vfdkDs8Cv4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Something went wrong...
33 mins

one has to struggle through darkness to discover the light at the end of the tunnel

Otra opción.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 35 mins (2017-10-03 15:42:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Light" in the form of enlightenment.
Peer comment(s):
neutral neilmac : No mention of the "sufrimiento" from the original....
8 mins
Sorry, but that's implied by "struggle". This is literary, not literal translation.
Something went wrong...
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