| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2] | Proof of academic credentials Téma indítója: Michael Newton
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| Don't send it--you can display a copy in your office | Aug 17, 2014 |
but do not send it anywhere, other than a university or the government. Let them call the university, or send them an e-mail to confirm. There are too many scams. They can literally use you diploma for someone else's diploma. Displaying a resume is nothing compared to that. If you meet them in person, you can show the. You can sign a statement regarding your education--which schools you attended and when. Some companies require a sworn statement, but never send your diploma anywhere.
[... See more but do not send it anywhere, other than a university or the government. Let them call the university, or send them an e-mail to confirm. There are too many scams. They can literally use you diploma for someone else's diploma. Displaying a resume is nothing compared to that. If you meet them in person, you can show the. You can sign a statement regarding your education--which schools you attended and when. Some companies require a sworn statement, but never send your diploma anywhere.
[Edited at 2014-08-17 20:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lincoln Hui 
Hongkong
Local time: 15:56
ProZ.com-tag
kínai - angol
+ ...
| Before or after - the point remains | Aug 17, 2014 |
Giles Watson wrote: Lincoln Hui wrote:
Of course it isn't, but it's one way, and one way or the other the agency has to find out whether the translator is competent before handing over a job. And there are some here who are extremely hostile to taking test translations, so pick your poison - credentials or tests?
It doesn't always happen that way, Lincoln. A couple of months ago I was asked to do a job for an overseas agency. This in itself was unusual as I don't normally work through agencies. Nevertheless, the job was interesting and there was no problem about the rate so I completed the assignment to the agency's satisfaction. Then they came back to me with a request for my degree credentials, which were apparently essential if I was going to work with them again. Since all the people I dealt with at the agency were very pleasant, why not? Ten or fifteen years ago, I got my degrees endorsed by the local authority in Italy where I live for reasons I can no longer remember so I sent off the old PDFs and the agency was quite happy. I'm looking forward to the next job.
Of course - in this case the agency assumes the risk and it turns out well enough for them. But one cannot expect that to always be the case. I once did a 1000 word translation + 500 word proofreading test for a small company that I didn't know much about, but that doesn't mean I'll be willing to do that every time.
In any case, you ended up sending them your credentials, and the main point is that there is nothing unusual or objectionable about an agency asking for a translator's credentials.
| | | | | Photoshopping diplomas | Aug 17, 2014 |
I don't mind sharing most of my certificates and diplomas, I worked hard for them and I'm happy to show a client that I have some credentials. Honestly though, if the agency worried me this much, I would probably just walk away from them.
| | | | 2GT
Olaszország
Local time: 09:56
angol - olasz
+ ...
| When in Rome... | Aug 17, 2014 |
Gitte Hovedskov: I am wondering whether there may be some cultural differences here? I can't for the life of me remember ever seeing a certificate on any Danish doctor's wall
I think there surely is.
In Italy every doctor, lawyer, notary, veterinary, engineer, accountant whose office I have visited has his/her university and specialization degree/s displayed on the wall.
Cheers
Gianni
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564354352 (X)
Dánia
Local time: 09:56
dán - angol
+ ...
| I don't do tests, either :) | Aug 18, 2014 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
... And there are some here who are extremely hostile to taking test translations, so pick your poison - credentials or tests?
I wouldn't say that I am 'hostile' in any way, I have just decided what I am willing to do in relation to potential clients. Submitting credentials, doing free test translations (and registering via agencies' online facilites, by the way) are not on my list.
However, I agree that any serious potential client will want to check somehow that a potential supplier can actually 'deliver the goods', which is fair enough, and then it is up to each of us to make sure in our own way that we can prove ourselves.
If ProZ.com were actually perceived as a site for professional translators, this would not be an issue, and as I suggested earlier (and someone else agreed), referring to the ProZ verification of any credentials should be enough. But clearly it isn't. That does not mean that I will submit to agencies' requests, though. I do business my way and this attracts the kind of clients I am interested in and sifts out those that are not my cup of tea. 
| | | | Giles Watson
Olaszország
Local time: 09:56
olasz - angol
Az Ő emlékére: | I'm "hostile" to working for nothing | Aug 18, 2014 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote: Lincoln Hui wrote:
... And there are some here who are extremely hostile to taking test translations, so pick your poison - credentials or tests?
I wouldn't say that I am 'hostile' in any way, I have just decided what I am willing to do in relation to potential clients.
I have no objections to tests as such, provided I can bill the customer for the translation along with the first "real" job. But I don't like doing commercial work for nothing.
[Edited at 2014-08-18 08:34 GMT]
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Kevin Fulton wrote:
It's very easy to fabricate a diploma even without an original. The registrars at universities are in no hurry to verify someone's credentials. Some in the US even charge a fee. It's really easier to create a pdf containing scans of your diplomas and send them to requesting parties.
Yeah, you can even watermark such a PDF, put restrictions on editing and resaving, and I'm only guessing but perhaps there is a way to prevent it from being printed?
You could even make it a neat package together with your other credentials, some testimonials, a sample or two and a detailed CV. You'd better have easy navigation in place if it's long, though.
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Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
I consider myself a business entity offering my services to potential clients, not someone looking for employment with an agency. I disagree with Clarisa that if you were an engineer you would accept that potential clients would ask to see your academic credentials, and I don't see any reason why any potential translation client should need to see our credentials either.
Presenting CVs, references and credentials is for people who are applying for employment, which I presume you are not. You are considering entering into a professional, mutual working relationship with an agency, and that is a different matter altogether. Ask yourself whether you are going to request the agency's credentials as a client who you would feel comfortable working with... And whether they would be willing to submit any such credentials (if indeed they have any) to you...
Personally, I tend to ignore any such requests from agencies, except in the odd case where I consider an agency particularly interesting. In such rare cases, and if an agency has contacted me via ProZ.com, I simply tell them that my credentials have been verified by ProZ.com and that I am a member of the CIOL, which is very easy to check online. Any professional agency should know that this means my credentials are valid.
Good approach! Especially the part where you point out that your credentials were verified by Proz.com. But I wholeheartedly agree, I provide professional language services and have done so for many years. Believe what I say, take it or leave it.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2014-08-18 17:37 GMT]
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John Fossey
Kanada
Local time: 03:56
Tag (2008 óta)
francia - angol
+ ...
| I do want credentials | Aug 18, 2014 |
Teresa Borges wrote:
When was the last time you asked to see your accountant’s diplomas or licenses, or your plumber’s license, or checked your doctor’s med school diploma, or asked for evidence that your lawyer passed the bar exam? No one does this.....
Actually, I do all of the above at the time. Although I won't ask for the actual document, I will look for the letters after my lawyer's name that shows he's a member of the bar, my accountant has to have "CA" after his name to show he's a chartered accountant, my plumber has to have his RBQ (Régie de batiment de Québec) license number on his truck and estimate, etc. I also used to object to people wanting my credentials, but I now consider that there are enough quacks in this world that some verification of professional status is necessary, and shouldn't be surprising.
[Edited at 2014-08-18 18:01 GMT]
| | | | Neil Coffey
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 08:56
francia - angol
+ ...
| I think you have to weigh up the pros and cons generally... | Aug 18, 2014 |
Michael Newton wrote:
I have been asked by several translation agencies to provide proof of academic credentials: scannable diploma and the like as a condition of working with them. Wouldn't it be easier to refer them to the credentials department of the university I graduated from?
I think this is one of those cases where you need to weigh up the whole situation. You could argue that in principle, the raison d'être of your degree certificate is precisely for the purpose they're asking-- to quickly and easily give a reasonable demonstration that you have the degree without having to jump through more long-winded hoops.
In reality, the whole situation is a contradiction:
- in asking for your degree certificate, they are saying that they don't trust you when you say you have a degree, yet simultaneously they are supposedly about to trust you with confidential client documents;
- you are saying that you don't trust them not to use your certificate for nefarious means, yet in working for them, you do trust that they will pay you for your work and not use your other personal details for nefarious means.
So it's not easy, but I think you have to balance up how each specific situation looks on its merits. How much a priori confidence do you feel you have in the agency as a whole?
My hunch would be that for a criminal gang in the business of using false credentials it would be easier for them to just order the fake documents they need from Plaza Santo Domingo than to mess around with your scanned certificate in Photoshop, but as I say, you need to assess how things look in each particular case.
P.S. This is of course precisely why having a third party such as ProZ can be invaluable: ProZ will vouch for you having the credential in question, and will (via people's testimonials/WWA) vouch for an agency being legitimate.
[Edited at 2014-08-18 20:26 GMT]
| | | | | Could be a cultural difference | Aug 19, 2014 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
One of my former tasks as an in-house technical translator was to test the language proficiency of job applicants. I was shocked to see how many of them, even those with very good credentials (BA and/or MA in translation) failed the tests miserably, sometimes even on very basic grammar issues. They had no experience and would not have been able to undertake a job as a translator straight from college. So, credentials really only show that you went to college (or whatever they show). They are not proof that you are a competent translator...
In my view, my credentials (exam certificates) are personal documents, and I don't give those out to just about any agency that wants to add me to their files.
In Denmark, we DO actually have an official authorisation of translators and interpreters, and this comes with a protected title. You would have to be a complete fool to claim to be state-authorised if you were not, as it only takes a few clicks on the Internet to check such a claim...
I am wondering whether there may be some cultural differences here? I can't for the life of me remember ever seeing a certificate on any Danish doctor's wall (they may be there, but I would never think of checking for them). I may be naïve, but I think that anybody who sets up practice as a doctor in Denmark would have to be qualified to do so, so what would I gain from seeing their credentials? I will only find out whether he/she is a good doctor by dealing with him/her. Ideally, I would choose my doctor by some trusted friend's recommendation, not by any credentials.
Similarly, if I am looking for a certified electrician, I find one in the local newspaper who states that he is a certified electrician, and I take his word for it. It wouldn't cross my mind to ask for proof...
But maybe that is just Denmark... You will get found out here if you try to con the world at large...
[Edited at 2014-08-17 16:35 GMT]
Perhaps it is a cultural difference. I worked at law firms for over 11 years and every single attorney at all the law firms I worked at had all their degrees from undergraduate to law school plus any additional legal related certificates up on the wall. My accountant also has his university degrees up on his wall. As far as doctors go, I do think that they have their degrees up on their wall in their private offices (not in the exam room), but don't quote me on that because I haven't gone to see my doctor in a while.
Perhaps a solution could be to put a watermark on each page of the degrees and/or certificates in order to protect them from being copied.
[Edited at 2014-08-19 00:38 GMT]
| | | | | my diplomas are my least worry | Aug 19, 2014 |
Paulette Romero wrote: Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
One of my former tasks as an in-house technical translator was to test the language proficiency of job applicants. I was shocked to see how many of them, even those with very good credentials (BA and/or MA in translation) failed the tests miserably, sometimes even on very basic grammar issues. They had no experience and would not have been able to undertake a job as a translator straight from college. So, credentials really only show that you went to college (or whatever they show). They are not proof that you are a competent translator...
In my view, my credentials (exam certificates) are personal documents, and I don't give those out to just about any agency that wants to add me to their files.
In Denmark, we DO actually have an official authorisation of translators and interpreters, and this comes with a protected title. You would have to be a complete fool to claim to be state-authorised if you were not, as it only takes a few clicks on the Internet to check such a claim...
I am wondering whether there may be some cultural differences here? I can't for the life of me remember ever seeing a certificate on any Danish doctor's wall (they may be there, but I would never think of checking for them). I may be naïve, but I think that anybody who sets up practice as a doctor in Denmark would have to be qualified to do so, so what would I gain from seeing their credentials? I will only find out whether he/she is a good doctor by dealing with him/her. Ideally, I would choose my doctor by some trusted friend's recommendation, not by any credentials.
Similarly, if I am looking for a certified electrician, I find one in the local newspaper who states that he is a certified electrician, and I take his word for it. It wouldn't cross my mind to ask for proof...
But maybe that is just Denmark... You will get found out here if you try to con the world at large...
[Edited at 2014-08-17 16:35 GMT] Perhaps it is a cultural difference. I worked at law firms for over 11 years and every single attorney at all the law firms I worked at had all their degrees from undergraduate to law school plus any additional legal related certificates up on the wall. My accountant also has his university degrees up on his wall. As far as doctors go, I do think that they have their degrees up on their wall in their private offices (not in the exam room), but don't quote me on that because I haven't gone to see my doctor in a while. Perhaps a solution could be to put a watermark on each page of the degrees and/or certificates in order to protect them from being copied. [Edited at 2014-08-19 00:38 GMT]
I can't agree with putting images of our degrees online. If you feel you need to oblige and "prove" your degree to someone, you can really only do that by referring them to the institution where you earned those degrees. Anything else is just a picture of something, really. But you better tell the truth when you talk about your degree(s).
And certificates and diplomas and degrees on anyone's office wall are not there to verify, at least not IMO, they're there to show you what kind of degrees or how many degrees or diplomas someone has. But I am sure no lawyer will put a scanned picture of his/her law degree or certificate online. That would be pretty crazy. And what does a watermark tell you? It's not authentic.
The truth lies with a variety of verifiable factors. For example, how long someone has been registered with Proz.com, what they have achieved on the Kudoz front (and yes, it does show if you know your stuff), how their profile page looks like, project history, feedback from clients and fellow translators, your own professional website with a history or "About" section that rings true. And as a prospective client, you write the translator an email or talk to him/her on the phone or Skype.
Verified copies of my degrees (and I honestly earned some) are my least worry.
[Edited at 2014-08-19 01:12 GMT]
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Phil Hand
Kína
Local time: 15:56
kínai - angol
| verification system =/= lack of trust | Aug 19, 2014 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
- in asking for your degree certificate, they are saying that they don't trust you when you say you have a degree, yet simultaneously they are supposedly about to trust you with confidential client documents;
I could not disagree with this more, in fact I think it is a pernicious and deeply harmful myth. This is exactly how corruption works.
The existence of a standard verification procedure does NOT imply lack of trust. In fact, verification procedures are how we build trust. As Gitte was saying, she doesn't ever have to personally check the certificates of the professionals she interacts with, because these systems are so rarely abused in Denmark, precisely because there are effective verification procedures in place.
The claim that "if you trust me, you should skip the standard verification" is how corrupt people work the system and avoid normal rules.
And as others have pointed out, for our profession - which is inherently international - following rules is more important than ever. The social norms and subtle signals which might tell us something is wrong in our own country do not always travel across borders. So, even more than most businesspeople, we are reliant on a few basic, formal systems.
On the specifics of this case, Neil had it right in the previous paragraph:
the raison d'être of your degree certificate is precisely for the purpose they're asking-- to quickly and easily give a reasonable demonstration that you have the degree
Using a certificate for its proper purpose should be something that builds trust, not the opposite.
| | | | | you must be kidding! | Aug 19, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
but do not send it anywhere, other than a university or the government. Let them call the university, or send them an e-mail to confirm. There are too many scams. They can literally use you diploma for someone else's diploma. .
[Edited at 2014-08-17 20:41 GMT]
Once I was asked to send a copy of my diploma. Why not? I sent them a black-and-white copy and everything was OK.
I wonder if an agency is willing to confirm with an university located more than 5000 miles away , in an other country, asking about a person who graduated 20-40 years ago. Let's be serious!
Lee
[Edited at 2014-08-19 03:06 GMT]
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