| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Double standard for English speakers translating out of their native language Thread poster: Deborah Hoffman
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| Terminology is not translation | Mar 19, 2009 |
Anne-Marie Grant wrote:
I have never dared, would never dare ...
post an answer 'out' of my native language. If I feel sure of myself, I might suggest to a non-native that their answer, in English, does not sound quite right.
I partly disagree. You certainly have a point about Google - a million google hits do not make it right for plenty of reasons that are off topic here.
But I agree with all the points given above, especially Mari-Hélène's, that people have often seen the term so many times in source texts, that they do know what they are talking about, and the fact that in the 'smaller' languages there might be no answers at all if only natives of the target language were allowed to answer.
*** *** *** *** ***
How to point out that an answer is wrong is a completely different issue. It is against site rules to make personal comments, and if you feel anyone is doing so, please contact a moderator.
e.g. in an 'Agree' to an answer: 'Brilliant suggestion' is OK, because in theory anyone could have suggested it. 'XXXX always has such brilliant ideas' is strictly not allowed!
On the negative scale, where a 'disagree' must be followed by an explanation, this must be linguistic, e.g. '*** refers to this situation and ¤¤¤ refers to a different context', is OK, because it simply corrects the error.
'Don't you know the difference between *** and ¤¤¤ ?' is a personal comment to the answerer and is not allowed. Obviously, calling people idiots or worse is way over the line.
No matter how irritating answerers are, the rule is that we must keep this for ourselves, or filter certain people from our mailboxes if necessary, and criticism must be constructive and not personal.
Remember, it reflects back on you too - if you give a good explanation when you correct the error, others will be grateful and use it in their own work. It may save complaints from their clients - and perhaps they will remember your name ...
Personal attacks do not have anything like the same effect
[Edited at 2009-03-19 11:47 GMT]
| | | | | no non-native bashing intended... | Mar 19, 2009 |
Thank you, you understood me precisely!
I did not mean to be bashing non-native speakers, rather just the opposite-that it would be inappropriate to respond to someone who is only trying to help by insulting them. When I am doing the non-native speaker thing I would prefer to be told "It's the wrong register" or "This just doesn't have the right ring to it," or "This is a scientific term rather than a general usage term" and addressed as one professional to another. I have been helped by m... See more Thank you, you understood me precisely!
I did not mean to be bashing non-native speakers, rather just the opposite-that it would be inappropriate to respond to someone who is only trying to help by insulting them. When I am doing the non-native speaker thing I would prefer to be told "It's the wrong register" or "This just doesn't have the right ring to it," or "This is a scientific term rather than a general usage term" and addressed as one professional to another. I have been helped by many non-native speakers, in one case in particular someone posted a photograph which immediately gave me the answer I was looking for.
>Nothing against non-native posters rather... 06:41
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
>>Like I said, I'm not a native speaker of English, but I believe I can contribute to >>people who are in need. And I believe that all the other non-native English >>speakers feel the same way.
>
>What I think Deborah means is how in some combinations, people who post >suggestions outside of their native language are harshly rebuffed or sometimes >even chastised when their answer is not 100% accurate. I happen to agree that >there is no need to be mean or impolite when correcting someone. It is far more >constructive to explain to a person why their suggestion is not correct in a >professional manner rather than being what I refer to as an intellectual snob.
>Interllectual snobs are those who may or may not be more >educated/knowledgeable than anyone else but enjoy touting what >they're "extensive" knowledge base and tearing down those who they feel may >not on the same level. (my personal definition. feel free to add/modify) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alaa Zeineldine 
Egypt
Local time: 09:27
Member (2002)
English to Arabic
+ ...
| English vs. non-English | Mar 19, 2009 |
Deborah Hoffman wrote:
Yet when someone stupid enough (say myself) to venture onto a board an offer a suggestion into my second language that at least has currency even if it may not be the most appropriate one in tone or collocation (which after all is better left to native speakers), others have NO PROBLEM coming out of the woodwork to tell you how wrong you are, and why nobody would say it that way, and so on, no matter how you try to specify that this is just a suggestion not offered with full pretensions toward 100% accuracy.
Am I the only one having this experience, or just the only one stupid enough to venture into translating into second-language territory?
Lack of specificity led to classification of languages into English and non-English and to classification of members into two categories, English natives and non-English natives (meaning native speakers of course, I hope). The resulting discussion involved interesting implications by some about each of those two categories of people.
Your experience was specific to English speakers and speakers of your second language. I can answer for my language pair and mention that the negative experience you described is not common in the Arabic KudoZ boards, be it into Arabic or otherwise. I don't believe that anything should be concluded from this about the categories of Arabic natives vs. non-Arabic natives. It should not even be concluded that all non-Arabic natives (i.e. native speakers) have something in common, something negative that is.
Does this make sense?
Alaa
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Giles Watson wrote: Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
In any case, the point here, as WilRoy and others have commented, is to be respectful of other askers and answerers at all times, whatever opinion we may have of their questions or answers.
It also helps to remember that sometimes non-native writers of English can come across as distinctly chippy, or even rude, when all they are trying to do is be emphatic. FWIW Giles
Giles has a point here that didn't occur to me. Unfortunately when communicating over fora, it's hard to tell if a person is indeed trying to be empathic without the visual cues of face to face communication.
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Zamira B.
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:27
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Russian native's opinion | Mar 19, 2009 |
Deborah Hoffman wrote:
I hear you, but it's not so much the fact of being pointed out that I'm wrong as the way in which it is done.
Deborah, I think I know what particular Kudoz question you refer to. I know that nobody (me included) likes to get disagrees but are not you overreacting here a little? Did not the guy start with "Простите великодушно, но..."? To those of you who do not speak Russian it would mean something like "Please be big-hearted and excuse me but...".
| | | | | it's a general observation | Mar 19, 2009 |
not directed at any one particular incident (and in this particular case the person was nice enough to erase his comment and replace it). In any event I'm not sure what makes a reaction over-or under- but I'm apparently not the only one it bothers though the comments about cultural norms when correcting people are likely very much on point.
[Редактировалось 2009-03-19 13:42 GMT]
[Редактировалось 2009-03-19 13:44 GMT]
| | | | Zamira B.
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:27
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Not all of them I dare to say | Mar 19, 2009 |
AWa wrote:
UK and US citizens are very polite. Especially when it comes to criticising others. They tend to first see the positive aspects, to find something to praise, and then address the negative - being very careful not to offend.
In my early days on Kudoz I was continually targeted by an appalling native English speaker. I did not know then that there were Proz rules saying that such people could be banned from Proz altogether.
| | | | Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 05:27
German to English
+ ...
| Thanks for sharing. Thanks for being you. Thank you. BTW, I disagree... | Mar 19, 2009 |
AWa wrote:
And, to get to the subject line of this posting, the third factor is that UK and US citizens are very polite. Especially when it comes to criticising others. They tend to first see the positive aspects, to find something to praise, and then address the negative - being very careful not to offend. Maybe the natives in the forums where non-natives are directly told they are wrong live in a society where everything, including criticism, is given more directly as a rule.
Thanks for pointing that out, AWa. Americans, in particular, tend to be overly polite. I should know, I'm from States. People thank you for sharing, thank you for being honest, thank you for "being you" and thank you for thanking them.
So naturally we're loath to jump all over the many poor, struggling non-native speakers who consistently come in with nonsensical answers and a confidence level of 4 or 5. And I'm not talking about people who genuinely want to "help out" – or non-native speakers who are excellent translators and have a profound knowledge of English – I'm talking about point grabbers with a good deal of chutzpah who are apparently trying to test the waters to see if they can compete with native speakers on the open market.
Many of them list English in their profiles as one of their target languages. Some of them even list English as their native tongue, which is clearly not the case. These people are armed with a dictionary and they have Google riding shotgun. Sometimes I give them explanations for my “disagrees” -- but occasionally I just have to write “No”.
Lately, however, I've tried to ignore certain answerers -- and I've noticed that many of my fellow native speakers of English have done the same. But that doesn't solve the problem. We're inundated. And we're capitulating...
The double standard may stem partly from the fact that many speakers of 'other' languages are not (yet?) flooded with answers from people who are clearly out of their depth. Perhaps native speakers of ‘other’ languages are more apt to be direct and blunt because they are not used to people using their language as a testing ground for a new career after two summers abroad. I don't know. It's hard for me to say because I very rarely answer a question that's not into English.
In any case, I'd generally say that if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
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Thank you for your example of an American being overly polite!
LOL!
| | | | | | Arnaud HERVE
France
Local time: 08:27
English to French
+ ...
I think the problem is more important when the asker has eventually chosen a wrong answer. And that happens (!)
I would favour giving the natives some sort of right to peruse the Kudoz after they are closed, and press a button to ask for their removal.
It would help keeping the Kudoz clean, even for Google searches.
I would not like someone typing "medical-keyword English French" in Google and arriving on a wrong answer, taking it for granted because it is ... See more I think the problem is more important when the asker has eventually chosen a wrong answer. And that happens (!)
I would favour giving the natives some sort of right to peruse the Kudoz after they are closed, and press a button to ask for their removal.
It would help keeping the Kudoz clean, even for Google searches.
I would not like someone typing "medical-keyword English French" in Google and arriving on a wrong answer, taking it for granted because it is Proz, and then making a treatment mistake. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 08:27
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Why native speakers? | Mar 24, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
I think the problem is more important when the asker has eventually chosen a wrong answer. And that happens (!)
Yes, of course this happens.
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
I would favour giving the natives some sort of right to peruse the Kudoz after they are closed, and press a button to ask for their removal.
It would help keeping the Kudoz clean, even for Google searches.
I would not like someone typing "medical-keyword English French" in Google and arriving on a wrong answer, taking it for granted because it is Proz, and then making a treatment mistake.
I can't see why someone would be able (and should be allowed) to judge whether the chosen answer for a medical question (or one of any other subject, with the possible exception of very generic ones) is correct, just because he/she is a native speaker!
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Arnaud HERVE
France
Local time: 08:27
English to French
+ ...
You got the principle anyway.
You define such a group that will be deemed more reliable. It's not for judging people it's for coding a special right in the system.
By tradition I would think that taking "nativeness" into account is a good principle. I would never veto something in German for instance.
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 08:27
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
By tradition I would think that taking "nativeness" into account is a good principle.
Well, obviously it can be taken into account, but it is not a valid criterion to tell whether someone is qualified to decide whether an answer is correct.
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 08:27
English to Dutch
+ ...
| Being a native speaker isn't everything | Mar 24, 2009 |
As it happens, I've seen some bad answers by English native speakers who gave no justification for their answers, other than 'I'm a native speaker'. In fact, I've even seen a native speaker who responded to a 'disagree' (a justified disagree!) given by a non-native with 'I'm a native speaker - you're not'.
Being a native speaker isn't all that matters. Self-criticism is. By that, I mean that an answerer should ask themselves:
- am I able to provide a good answer,
- do... See more As it happens, I've seen some bad answers by English native speakers who gave no justification for their answers, other than 'I'm a native speaker'. In fact, I've even seen a native speaker who responded to a 'disagree' (a justified disagree!) given by a non-native with 'I'm a native speaker - you're not'.
Being a native speaker isn't all that matters. Self-criticism is. By that, I mean that an answerer should ask themselves:
- am I able to provide a good answer,
- do I have sufficient and correct knowledge,
- is my answer helpful,
- can I back it up with good references if necessary,
- does it make a good entry into the glossaries?
If everybody answered these questions objectively before answering any KudoZ question at all, this whole thing about native vs. non-native probably wouldn't even be necessary. ▲ Collapse
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