| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Platinum KudoZ answerers to be given favored exposure in new leaderboard, KudoZ pages Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 17:47
French to English
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[quote]Marcus Malabad wrote:
Folks, please wait until you all see what this new feature is about before making rash emotional judgments as to its benefits (and perceived disadvantages).
I just sense that unless people wave a few flags right now then it will be downhill on the way on from here. And I tend to trust my intuition.....
| | | | tazdog (X)
Spain
Local time: 17:47
Spanish to English
+ ...
| agree with Marcus | Apr 20, 2005 |
I agree with what Marcus said: why don't we just wait and see what this new system is like before we all start wailing and gnashing our teeth and creating martyrs? For the life of me, I can't see how it would prevent anyone from participating in Kudoz if they want to do so, especially if they really don't care about the leaderboard or possible jobs. If I understand this right, non-plats will still be able to answer, their answers will still be displayed in exactly the same way, their names wi... See more I agree with what Marcus said: why don't we just wait and see what this new system is like before we all start wailing and gnashing our teeth and creating martyrs? For the life of me, I can't see how it would prevent anyone from participating in Kudoz if they want to do so, especially if they really don't care about the leaderboard or possible jobs. If I understand this right, non-plats will still be able to answer, their answers will still be displayed in exactly the same way, their names will still be on the leaderboard, but their names will not link directly to their profiles (and if that's not right, then someone please correct me). If non-plat Kudoz answerers aren't out for exposure, this new system shouldn't make any difference to them one way or another; if they are, well, in my mind that's a good reason for going platinum. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's all very tricky! | Apr 20, 2005 |
First, although perhaps I may have come across as being a hard-core can't-pay-won't-pay case, this is not true and I *do* know that there's no such thing as a free lunch. Kudoz is a very valuable resource, and as such is quite possibly worth paying something for, I accept that.
However, the point is that the platinum membership thing has always come across as being mainly for those *actively* seeking work.
Whether you treat kudoz as a game, pure altruism, or as free exchange ... See more First, although perhaps I may have come across as being a hard-core can't-pay-won't-pay case, this is not true and I *do* know that there's no such thing as a free lunch. Kudoz is a very valuable resource, and as such is quite possibly worth paying something for, I accept that.
However, the point is that the platinum membership thing has always come across as being mainly for those *actively* seeking work.
Whether you treat kudoz as a game, pure altruism, or as free exchange service (I help you one day, you help me the next) or take it seriously, it is undoubtedly a way of getting yourself noticed which may *passively* bring in work. But not any more if this change is implemented and you don't go platinum. Which may be fair enough, as far as *passively* getting work is concerned.
And not being platinum will not stop the altruistically-minded contributing if they want to.
However, there are 2 points I'd like to make.
One, if people stop contributing to kudoz because of this issue, then kudoz will immediately become less valuable and, as such, immediately LESS worth paying for. It becomes self-defeating.
I note that in my language pair (Fr-Eng), only 3 out of the top 10 3-month (i.e actively contributing recently)leader board are platinum. The other 7 therefore don't feel it necessary to *actively* seek work here, presumably at least in part because they don't need to, because they are good translators, as is (partially) borne out by their position in the leader board. These people who don't PAY anything nonetheless must be considered as making a valuable contribution in other ways, i.e. the quality of information available on the site, which attracts people who DO pay.
Two, is my natural is-this-the-thin-end-of-the-wedge attitude. If I don't pay for this, but carry on partipating, what will be restricted to platinum-only next. The kudoz glossary? I'm gonna have to pay to see stuff I gave away freely?
I appreciate that Henry has said he is aiming to steer the site to a more professional level, which I'm fully in favour of, and that this needs to be funded. However, it does seem that the funding comes first in his priorities. After all, how hard would it have been to implement some of the other suggestions to make the site "more professional" (e.g. stopping non-registered people from asking questions)? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | No change in philosophy | Apr 20, 2005 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I note that in my language pair (Fr-Eng), only 3 out of the top 10 3-month (i.e actively contributing recently)leader board are platinum.
According to the new leaderboard, which is ranked by PRO points (and is what I see now), 5 of the top 10 are platinum. You and CMJ_Trans are 2 of the remaining 5.
I appreciate that Henry has said he is aiming to steer the site to a more professional level, which I'm fully in favour of, and that this needs to be funded. However, it does seem that the funding comes first in his priorities. After all, how hard would it have been to implement some of the other suggestions to make the site "more professional" (e.g. stopping non-registered people from asking questions)?
Again, I would ask that you simply wait and see before rushing to judgment. If you look back on the last five years, it is impossible to argue that we have not put openness first. You may rest assured that this will continue to be the case.
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Kirill Semenov 
Ukraine
Local time: 18:47
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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| Sure, Henry should pay to all of us for our contributions ;-) | Apr 20, 2005 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
One, if people stop contributing to kudoz because of this issue, then kudoz will immediately become less valuable and, as such, immediately LESS worth paying for. It becomes self-defeating.
I would not overestimate mine, yours and anybody's else contributions to kudoZ. I had quite a long periods of my "abstinence" or inactivity at proZ. Strange enough, kudoZ was still alive, even without me! What a hard blow for my ego!
Not trying to disregard individuals' inputs into kudoZ, I would compare kudoZ to an anthill - it consists of many participants' efforts, and even if a great one is inactive, kudoZ system is still running (moreover, smoothly enough).
Two, is my natural is-this-the-thin-end-of-the-wedge attitude. If I don't pay for this, but carry on partipating, what will be restricted to platinum-only next. The kudoz glossary? I'm gonna have to pay to see stuff I gave away freely?
I doubt that you often search kudoZ glossaries for your own answers (happens sometimes, but just to ear more kudoZ).
Anyway for me this is a fault logic -- following this line, you well may come to a conclusion that it's Henry and the staff who ought to pay you for your contribution. Sure, it's a joke, -- but, really...
| | | | | Full credit (and my membership fee) granted, Henry. | Apr 20, 2005 |
Henry wrote: But just so you know, when you meet good clients through your ProZ.com network, we do still claim credit  , even if it is not by way of job posting (and it usually isn't). We see our job as facilitating the networking. That's why things like clickable names matter.
Exactly! Which is why I continue and will continue to pay.
My Proz.com team (Alain Cote's team) is a perfect example of this, and a networking resource I am more than happy to pay for.
Sara
| | | | two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 12:47
Member
English to Spanish
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With all due respect, I personally feel this discussion is a bit out of proportion.
There will be a small change in KudoZ, clicking on some names will no longer lead to the corresponding profiles. This will translate in differential exposure but I fail to see how it would fundamentally affect the KudoZ system.
I envision other changes on this line, giving small differential advantages to paying members while keeping a welcoming environment to the much appreciated non-p... See more With all due respect, I personally feel this discussion is a bit out of proportion.
There will be a small change in KudoZ, clicking on some names will no longer lead to the corresponding profiles. This will translate in differential exposure but I fail to see how it would fundamentally affect the KudoZ system.
I envision other changes on this line, giving small differential advantages to paying members while keeping a welcoming environment to the much appreciated non-paying ones.
On the other hand, I don't imagine these changes making no-paying members massively deserting ProZ.com.
I personally pay Platinum membership mainly as an acknowledgement of all I receive from ProZ.com, and I don't mean only jobs, but also as a community.
By the way, as far as I remember the "more equals than other" quote belongs to Orwell's Animal farm.
Kind regards,
Enrique Cavalitto ▲ Collapse
| | | | Endre Both
Germany
Local time: 17:47
English to German
| The difference will be in exposure, not in access to KudoZ | Apr 20, 2005 |
Cindy Chadd wrote:
...I can't see how it would prevent anyone from participating in Kudoz if they want to do so, especially if they really don't care about the leaderboard or possible jobs. If I understand this right, non-plats will still be able to answer, their answers will still be displayed in exactly the same way, their names will still be on the leaderboard, but their names will not link directly to their profiles (and if that's not right, then someone please correct me). If non-plat Kudoz answerers aren't out for exposure, this new system shouldn't make any difference to them one way or another; if they are, well, in my mind that's a good reason for going platinum.
Your understanding of the changes is correct, Cindy, and I fully share your conclusions.
Endre
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| A very good point | Apr 20, 2005 |
Cindy Chadd wrote:
If non-plat Kudoz answerers aren't out for exposure, this new system shouldn't make any difference to them one way or another; if they are, well, in my mind that's a good reason for going platinum.
And there's the rub
I guess the likes of me are gonna have to decide what their attitude to it is.
And since I've already argued in favour of the passive approach to getting work that kudoz can offer, and since I've already said I don't believe in free lunches, well, I guess I'm inclined to think I'll cough up anyway...
(Without wishing to sound like I always want to see the bad side, now that (some) people will, in a way, have a financial interest in the exposure that kudoz brings, I can foresee even more competitiveness than before. On the other hand, with all the extra loot from thousands of people going platinum, maybe we could have paid moderators to keep a lid on things )
| | | | RHELLER
United States
Local time: 09:47
French to English
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| don't forget the proz page | Apr 20, 2005 |
I agree with Sara - I have received many anonymous recommendations for jobs simply because I am active in kudoz.
More than that, I really like having my proz page. Since I don't have my own website, it is a place of reference which gives me (I hope) "virtual" credibility
I also agree with Kirill - there will be others to take your place.
Here's a suggestion: how about rewarding excellent ... See more I agree with Sara - I have received many anonymous recommendations for jobs simply because I am active in kudoz.
More than that, I really like having my proz page. Since I don't have my own website, it is a place of reference which gives me (I hope) "virtual" credibility
I also agree with Kirill - there will be others to take your place.
Here's a suggestion: how about rewarding excellent contributors who make the leader board and who participate actively in kudoz with a reduction in platinum fees? That way, "volunteers" feel valued and proz still does not go broke.
Proz then validates and supports the idea that valuable expertise is alive and well on proz - and will continue to be! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I’d like to support Rita here | Apr 21, 2005 |
I am also one of the “volunteers” who contribute more or less frequently as a hobby, without ever thinking of getting a job this way. However, I’ve never made the leader board (a more or less permanent place in the Top 100 of my language pair is what I can manage). I’ve considered getting Platinum just out of gratitude for Henry and the team (and perhaps to be more visible as well), but simply can’t afford it in my present situation. I still hope ...
However, I feel uneasy about ... See more I am also one of the “volunteers” who contribute more or less frequently as a hobby, without ever thinking of getting a job this way. However, I’ve never made the leader board (a more or less permanent place in the Top 100 of my language pair is what I can manage). I’ve considered getting Platinum just out of gratitude for Henry and the team (and perhaps to be more visible as well), but simply can’t afford it in my present situation. I still hope ...
However, I feel uneasy about the gradual changes taking place. They are slow, that’s true, and I understand that running the site requires time, effort and resources, but every time another small change to induce Platinum membership is introduced, I again start feeling a bit guilty when using the site, at least for a time. I may not really need the Platinum-only improvements, but I get the feeling that in a few years it will be not only “no free lunch”, but rather “no free crumb”. And it’s just the atmosphere of free sharing that makes Proz so attractive ...
I would take Rita’s idea of awarding the most active Prozians with discounted membership even further. I would grant the leaders with “honorary Platinum” for a fixed period of time (like 3 or 6 months – definitely shorter than the standard), with a few of those just missing the board being offered a discounted rate. IMO this would have a double result:
1) make the active contributors feel appreciated, and
2) give them a taste of what it’s like to be Platinum (they could then decide if it’s attractive enough to them to make them pay and prolong, or not). I’d love to test the feeling, too ... so would have to try hard to achieve. With many people trying hard, the site would become still more active, and that's what we all wish for, isn't it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | only "full" members with access to the job board are given favored exposure in the directory | Feb 5, 2012 |
xxxCMJ_Trans wrote:
Sorry, Henry, but I cannot justify the expense of Platinum membership simply because I do not need to bid for jobs(remember, I came to this site as a client and not as a service provider). Unless my life changes radically (my pension funds all go bust or whatever!), I cannot see the point in my particular case but I'm pretty sure there are lots of others out there who feel the same.
I find myself in a similar situation to xxxCMJ_Trans' that concerns favored exposure in the directory for (only) full members and especially those who are Certified Pros. Outsourcers looking for "professionals" will find those first who are Certified Pros (in order of their KudoZ points), then all members (in order of their KudoZ points but also everybody who has never earned a single KudoZ point) and, in a completely (in)different category, non-members (like me, currently).
I had proposed to pay for a new type of membership (see this forum post of mine - http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/215306-suggesting_a_different_kind_of_prozcom_membership.html#1867975 ) and directly to Proz.com, paying for Certified Pro-Status which allows the best listing possible, depending on KudoZ points, but not for FULL membership because I do not want to pay for access to the job board or even want to be associated with it (I, as a professional, find most of the rates offered there an outrage and unacceptable) but Proz.com continues to let it go as a laissez faire sort of system, THUS having a big impact on the industry on the whole, allowing cheap labor transactions on the translation market through use of their website. By paying for this job service of Proz.com which I do not wish to use, I would also directly contribute to its continuation in its present form and to continuing, unacceptable rates paid to translators and, in my opinion, to a very likely (and IMO already happening) shift of jobs away from professionals who work for adequate rates to individuals who work for unacceptable low rates (I can't judge how good or bad they are but it is very likely that a lot of newcomers on Proz.com simply take "advantage" of such jobs but are, at the same time, exploited by the outsourcers). It's simply not right, no matter how often we hear from Proz.com that they simply "allow" for this sort of job board and have no influence on the rates. The simple existence of such a huge forum has a major impact on the development of rates. that's just logical.
In any case, my latest request for a type of membership that would grant me retaining my Certified Pro status and my excellent position in the directory was denied and I was told that one MUST be a full member to also be a Certified Pro.
Proz.com did not "make" me a Certified Pro, and frankly, I don't consider this "badge" that important (or as having an excellent image in the industry) but, unfortunately, it propels you to the top of the translator directories.
Although I did not get many jobs from outsourcers who found me in 1st or second place even when I was a member and certified pro, I still considered it a great image tool (in combination with the KudoZ points I had earned and which would be displayed in the directory listings). That's why I was still willing to pay something - despite the fact I also earned the KudoZ points myself, I wasn't just "given" KudoZ points.
I also shared with Proz.com my opinion that I as a professional translator who has successfully contributed to KudoZ for many years am a major "part" of what Proz.com sells, a great asset to display (I don't mean to brag here).
In addition, why would Proz.com not take less money from me for a more restrictive membership that leaves intact and on display the things I have earned myself (certified pro status as well as KudoZ points) while at the same time selling my best "assets" to searchers of the directories. Wouldn't we both win?
But no, it can't be.
I am afraid I will soon also have an xxx in front of my name, voluntarily.
I have also posted this as a new topic here:
http://www.proz.com/forum/marketing_for_translators/217627-only_full_members_with_access_to_the_job_board_are_given_favored_exposure_in_the_directory.html
“only "full" members with access to the job board are given favored exposure in the directory
Please feel free to reply there.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-02-05 05:42 GMT]
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