| Stran v tématu: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Why answer Kudoz questions? Or why not? Autor vlákna: Marinus Vesseur
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| Try KudoZ English to Spanish - PRO - Telecommunications and tell us what you think | Jun 12, 2005 |
Hi Dyran! As usual, I am glad to have you around for your frank opinions.
In this case, though, you are underestimating your colleagues.
Please try this: Pull up a list of the (closed) English to Spanish, PRO-level telecommunications terms (one of your specialities, I think). Look at the terms and their translations. Now, "knowing" you, I imagine you will have no trouble finding examples of what you believe are bad translations. But here is my question to you: Can you f... See more Hi Dyran! As usual, I am glad to have you around for your frank opinions.
In this case, though, you are underestimating your colleagues.
Please try this: Pull up a list of the (closed) English to Spanish, PRO-level telecommunications terms (one of your specialities, I think). Look at the terms and their translations. Now, "knowing" you, I imagine you will have no trouble finding examples of what you believe are bad translations. But here is my question to you: Can you find any good translations listed? Or is there not even one?
Now, go to the leaderboard and look up the leaders in the same field. Look at their previous answers (if you click the point totals now, you will see only their English to Spanish telecommunications answers). Again, I am sure you will find translators who you find to be inadequate. But here is my challenge to you: Can you find one person who seems to know something about the field? Or is there not even one KudoZ answerer who is capable in your field?
Dyran, I believe you are a good translator. But you should acknowledge that there are very good translators using KudoZ. Pretending that there are not may seem like it is working for you with your clients, but I suppose it is not--after all, your clients know good translators when they see them. And they probably know bluster when they see it, also. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steffen Walter 
Německo
Local time: 22:30
Člen (2002)
angličtina -> němčina
+ ...
| Well, not really ... | Jun 12, 2005 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote:
I've met quite a few translators in person. Some were even Prozians. Now, I don't need to meet face to face to talk shop, share jobs or increase my network of colleagues. Maybe because I've been using computers since the 80s and the Internet since the early 90s. Different strokes...
No, I think you - at least partly - missed my point. Using the Internet and computers (I've been doing so for the last ten or so years as well) is only one side of the story.
IMHO face-to-face meetings are just the other, necessary, side of one and the same coin, plus they add mutual trust and understanding (regardless of these being ProZ.com powwows or any other meetings, e.g. of members of translators' mailing lists, such as the German Yahoo Group pt_ - formerly Partnertrans). I beg to maintain that there are some things virtual communication will never be able to achieve or convey, given the absence of facial expression, gestures etc. So, in essence, doing one thing while not abandoning the other is the way to go, at least for me.
Steffen
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
Spojené státy americké
Local time: 16:30
angličtina -> španělština
+ ...
Steffen Walter wrote:
I beg to maintain that there are some things virtual communication will never be able to achieve or convey, given the absence of facial expression, gestures etc. So, in essence, doing one thing while not abandoning the other is the way to go, at least for me.
I did understand what you said.
What I mean is I don't need to meet face to face. Not at all.
Basically, I think it would hinder communication in many cases because we are wired to react to body language, personal appearance, and potentially annoying habits (smoking comes to mind).
So... do I care if the person I'm communicating with has personal hygiene problems, speaks in a loud, screechy voice, smokes cigars, etc.? Not at all. All I notice is the nice flow of words and, with nothing else to distract me, I can concentrate on the topic at hand.
Like I said, different strokes...
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Dyran Altenburg (X)
Spojené státy americké
Local time: 16:30
angličtina -> španělština
+ ...
| Hello Henry! | Jun 12, 2005 |
Henry wrote:
here is my question to you: Can you find any good translations listed? Or is there not even one?
I never said there are none. I said I found many (most?) responses lacking, and that the ones I received when I asked questions were not as good as I needed them to be. Therefore, I stopped participating.
But here is my challenge to you: Can you find one person who seems to know something about the field? Or is there not even one KudoZ answerer who is capable in your field?
Again, chances are there are people in ProZ who know a lot about any given specialty. Now, did any of them answer my questions to my full satisfaction? Nope.
Pretending that there are not may seem like it is working for you with your clients, but I suppose it is not--after all, your clients know good translators when they see them. And they probably know bluster when they see it, also.
FWIW, my clients arrived at their own opinion of ProZ in general, and KudoZ in particular, all by themselves. I only gave them the link to peruse the site as they saw fit (out of the several translators they work with, I'm the only one on ProZ). So they agree with me. One translator among, how many millions? Hardly a meaningful statistic all by itself, really.
Still, I feel kind of flattered that you singled out my response to address those of us who think KudoZ is not working quite as well as we'd like. I, for one, appreciate it.
| | | | | Excellent article, Konstantin! | Jun 12, 2005 |
I am also grateful, too. When I am in need for some help, they provide me with it, perhaps not with the right answer for my context, but from their ideas, for the urls they provide looking for information, I get what I am looking for.
Not going too far, some days ago I posted something and a proz.member wrote to me directly to my email address providing me with the paraphrasing of a sentence I couldn't understand, perhaps due to tiredness or whatever. I asked him to post it in Kudo... See more I am also grateful, too. When I am in need for some help, they provide me with it, perhaps not with the right answer for my context, but from their ideas, for the urls they provide looking for information, I get what I am looking for.
Not going too far, some days ago I posted something and a proz.member wrote to me directly to my email address providing me with the paraphrasing of a sentence I couldn't understand, perhaps due to tiredness or whatever. I asked him to post it in KudoZ and he said "I only wanted to help you". Isnt'it great? He lives in Spain.
I will be always thankful to Henry and his ProZ.com for this site.
Inés ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 14:30
němčina -> angličtina
| Why answer KudoZ questions? | Jun 12, 2005 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote:
Now, since better answers/questions can be found in other fora where no points are gained by helping others, or by contacting trusted colleagues directly, I don't forsee participating again any time soon.
Dyran, when I said your honest assessment of KudoZ "was much appreciated" I was speaking for myself, of course. I tend to welcome criticism (something I was trained in as an English lit major) because it often helps others see things more clearly.
I happen to share your opinion that the contributions of some participants leaves much to be desired. I agree that some play the KudoZ game for selfish reasons and not to try to help the asker find the best possible solution, i.e. for the points and whatever they associate with them. Dozens of threads in this forum have been devoted to this problem.
But these people are in the minority. I've been using and contributing to KudoZ for almost five years now, and I can say without hesitation that the majority of KudoZ answerers are sincere and professional in the language pairs I participate in. I've acquired valuable research skills by answering KudoZ questions and I've learned valuable lessons about translating from peer comments. In the German/English pairs our numbers include the very best experts in law, medicine, technology, finance, etc. who consistently submit reliable translation proposals.
I've been helped with outstanding solutions on many occasions. For me, KudoZ is the last resort, after I've worked hard to find a good translation on my own using the tools of the trade. But knowing that KudoZ and the good folks who participate are there when I really need it, makes the life of a translator much less nerve-wracking.
[Edited at 2005-06-13 00:36]
[Edited at 2005-06-13 01:27]
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| Thanks, Dyran! | Jun 12, 2005 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote: Henry wrote:
here is my question to you: Can you find any good translations listed? Or is there not even one? I never said there are none... But here is my challenge to you: Can you find one person who seems to know something about the field? Or is there not even one KudoZ answerer who is capable in your field? Again, chances are there are people in ProZ who know a lot about any given specialty...
Thank you for acknowledging the above. My request is that you remember the "good translations", and the people who "know a lot about any given specialty", the next time you feel inclined to denigrate KudoZ users in general terms.
| | | | tazdog (X)
Španělsko
Local time: 22:30
španělština -> angličtina
+ ...
| more and more reasons not to answer | Jun 14, 2005 |
I have been a fairly regular participant in answering Kudoz for the last 4 years, but a combination of several factors has me seriously wondering why I even bother. Most of these have been touched on in this thread already. (My experience is in the Spanish-English pairs, which have very heavy traffic.)
1. The proliferation of people who fall all over themselves to answer questions in areas about which they are totally clueless (usually technical questions), and in record time. (Ca... See more I have been a fairly regular participant in answering Kudoz for the last 4 years, but a combination of several factors has me seriously wondering why I even bother. Most of these have been touched on in this thread already. (My experience is in the Spanish-English pairs, which have very heavy traffic.)
1. The proliferation of people who fall all over themselves to answer questions in areas about which they are totally clueless (usually technical questions), and in record time. (Can anyone tell me what a “drive piler” is? doesn’t matter, it’s now in the glossary.) It's not about helping, it's about getting points. This is extremely frustrating when I’m trying to provide well-documented answers about my fields of specialization (and even more frustrating when I’m asking the question).
2. The increasing number of askers who have no idea of what they are trying to translate and even less idea of how to check the answers that are proposed, and are therefore incapable of selecting one that even makes sense (also known as “the blind leading the blind”). (Who cares if the answerer has invented a word and then supports the invention using the single reference found via Google, in a badly translated document? That’s still incontrovertible proof, right?)
3. The numerous individuals who copy and paste a whole page of Google results to support a completely unfounded answer. (Relevance? what's that?)
4. The unending stream of peer graders willing to agree with whatever strikes their fancy, whether the answer has any merit or not, whether they themselves have any real clue or not. How can someone who doesn't even claim to work in Tech/Engineering suddenly have the knowledge to offer an opinion on an answer to a highly specialized question?
5. Inconsiderate and/or rude askers: closing questions without grading without offering the least insight into what the supposedly correct answer they found is; not bothering to look elsewhere before posting their questions (not even checking a dictionary); wasting everyone’s time by not checking the glossaries first (a Kudoz search for “llave en mano,” for example, shows that it has appeared in 19 ES > EN questions already, and hey, guess what, it keeps getting the same answer!), etc. etc.
The whole Kudoz-answering experience has been leaving a pretty nasty taste in my mouth lately. It's not really fun any more, and even the challenge factor has lost its appeal in the midst of so much garbage, so maybe it's time to simply quit. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | We're working on these problems, Cindy | Jun 14, 2005 |
Cindy Chadd wrote:
The whole Kudoz-answering experience has been leaving a pretty nasty taste in my mouth lately. It's not really fun any more, and even the challenge factor has lost its appeal in the midst of so much garbage, so maybe it's time to simply quit.
Thanks for your input, Cindy. Your concerns are shared by others.
1. The proliferation of people who fall all over themselves to answer questions in areas about which they are totally clueless
...
4. ... How can someone who doesn't even claim to work in Tech/Engineering suddenly have the knowledge to offer an opinion on an answer to a highly specialized question?
The suggestion has been made to introduce optional filters so that an asker can limit his/her question to answerers who list the field in question among their working pairs. I think that would help to address, in part, your points 1 and 4.
5. Inconsiderate and/or rude askers: closing questions without grading without offering the least insight into what the supposedly correct answer they found is; not bothering to look elsewhere before posting their questions (not even checking a dictionary); wasting everyone’s time by not checking the glossaries first (a Kudoz search for “llave en mano,” for example, shows that it has appeared in 19 ES > EN questions already, and hey, guess what, it keeps getting the same answer!), etc. etc.
We are going to introduce search-as-you-ask, and remove the option to decline answers. This will help on point 5.
2. The increasing number of askers who have no idea of what they are trying to translate
Questions limits and other means of gradually creating a more professional environment should contribute to improvement in this area over time.
The problems you identify are real and we are working on them. I hope you continue to work with us on improving KudoZ.
| | | | Ramon Somoza
Španělsko
Local time: 22:30
nizozemština -> španělština
+ ...
| "Fully booked" IS a reason for not posting... | Jun 15, 2005 |
[quote]Janfri wrote:
bale002 wrote:
"some of us are fully booked and barely have time for anything else but serving our customers."
I wonder what the fully booked colleagues do with all that money. When I work, I translate at least 5000 words a day. On some weekends I translate 20.000 between friday and monday morning. I do this job job because it permits me to work maximum 10 days a month or even less and the rest stay with my family, enjoy myself, waste my time with kudoz questions etc.
Well, I personally pay my mortgage and feed a family of five.
and yes, I'm exactly in that situation... fully booked, meaning I'm working 16 hours a day -inluding weekends- for some months now. I have rejected three 50,000 word jobs, and one 100,000 word job for that reason just in the past two months.
Having had (not so long ago) such a bad time (no customers) that I was close to bankrupcy, I intend to keep going at full speed as long as it lasts. You know the Bible story about the seven fat years, etc...? I will stop when I have sufficient for a long period of hunger. (But in the meantime I'll give the family a treat - for the first time in four years, we will go on vacation... one full month in Mallorca!)
In the meantime, sorry, but I will only respond ocassionally to Kudoz (when I make a break, like just now). And I LIKE responding, despite the fact that the competition is so ferocious that all too often they forget even good manners...
Now, I have posted myself some questions from time to time. Sometimes I got excellent answer, sometimes complete trash. It is very curious, but sometimes I got the response even as a "question to the asker" or the best solution was one commenting on somebody else's response (and I could not award the points to this guy). In any case, when I DO respond to KudoZ, it is because I believe I am helping others in the same way that they helped me when it was me who raised the question....
[Edited at 2005-06-15 19:05]
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Ramon Somoza
Španělsko
Local time: 22:30
nizozemština -> španělština
+ ...
Cindy Chadd wrote:
The whole Kudoz-answering experience has been leaving a pretty nasty taste in my mouth lately. It's not really fun any more, and even the challenge factor has lost its appeal in the midst of so much garbage, so maybe it's time to simply quit.
Cindy, you forgot the guys that answer without actually reading the context and provide the "standard" dictionary response that we had already discarded as being worthless in that particular context...
And yet, despite all that, I try to respond when I take a couple of minutes off. It is often very challenging to find a certain "nuánce" that only someone with some "Fingerspitzengefühl" can really appreciate...
[Edited at 2005-06-15 19:26]
| | | | Ramon Somoza
Španělsko
Local time: 22:30
nizozemština -> španělština
+ ...
| About removing the option to decline answers... | Jun 15, 2005 |
Henry wrote:
We are going to introduce search-as-you-ask, and remove the option to decline answers. This will help on point 5.
Sorry, Henry, but I disagree. If a response is completely wrong (for example, because the answerer did not even bother to read the context, as has happened to me several times), it should be possible to decline it. However, I agree with Cindy that it is inconsiderate and impolite to decline an answer without stating why you do......
| | | | | It will be possible to post feedback, but "declining" has been deemed unnecessary | Jun 15, 2005 |
Ramon Somoza wrote: Henry wrote:
We are going to introduce search-as-you-ask, and remove the option to decline answers. This will help on point 5.
Sorry, Henry, but I disagree. If a response is completely wrong (for example, because the answerer did not even bother to read the context, as has happened to me several times), it should be possible to decline it. However, I agree with Cindy that it is inconsiderate and impolite to decline an answer without stating why you do......
It will be possible for the asker to submit a note to an answer explaining why it is not suitable. But the answer will not be marked "declined", that is all.
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