| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Too many questions. Yes, one more time. (staff: 'limits will be 1 / 5 / 15') Автор темы: Sormane Gomes
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15 questions are not too many. I usually get 10K-15K+ word projects and I *would* pose 15+ questions and would have no qualms about it. I normally don't of course since I find the answers myself. The 15-question limit was arrived at after 4 years or dicussion. People should learn to accept that.
[Edited at 2005-05-29 01:22]
| | | | two2tango 
Аргентина
Local time: 20:26
Член ProZ.com
английский => испанский
+ ...
| On arbitrary numbers | May 29, 2005 |
Sormane Gomes wrote: two2tango wrote:
The 15-a-day number was not based on scientific research but on the combined experience of a lot of site moderators.
I think we are serious.
Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto
At 15 questions a day I am not helping you, I am doing your work. And that is based on over 15 years of experience in the business. I rest my case.
And what would be the "right" limit?
10 per day?
5 per day?
Pick any number and somebody will find it too low and someone else will find it too high.
BTW, we just had someone asking a question that is more than ten words. Needless to say despite the fact that two of us warned the asker that that is against the rules, two people already rushed to give an answer.
Very interesting, but I fail to see the relationship between this fact and the issue we are talking about in this thread. I assume you are not trying to despict me as a "point grabber", since it would go aganst forum rule 8, and against the fact that I have answered only 4 questions in all of May.
Enrique
[Edited at 2005-05-31 14:41]
| | | | Lingo Pros
США
Local time: 19:26
персидский (фарси) => английский
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| The 'Consulting' aspect & X<>X Kudoz | May 29, 2005 |
It seems the 'professional consulting aspect' of Kudoz has not been taken into account by some who being fed up with abusers, have disagreed with 15-question-limit. I agree that in case of abusers, even one question is more than enough. But in case of those pros genuinely consulting/ exchanging thoughts with colleagues about some specific cases, 15 is a fair number like in case of a 1000-1500 word highly technical/archaic text.
Personally, most of the time I've posted questions not ... See more It seems the 'professional consulting aspect' of Kudoz has not been taken into account by some who being fed up with abusers, have disagreed with 15-question-limit. I agree that in case of abusers, even one question is more than enough. But in case of those pros genuinely consulting/ exchanging thoughts with colleagues about some specific cases, 15 is a fair number like in case of a 1000-1500 word highly technical/archaic text.
Personally, most of the time I've posted questions not to get the "translation" - as I already knew one or more equivalents for the word/term - but to know about better options, make sure I've chosen the best equivalent in the context or simply feeling like discussing about it more with others.
Either for helping with the project or solely for the sake of discussion and exchanging ideas linguistcally, any of us should feel free to share our thoughts with colleagues asking: "What do YOU think in this case...?" Especially in cases like foreign words (a third language) used in the source language.
The reason for many translators to ask questions is to discuss some points with colleagues and not getting a free translation as in case of the abusers. This can be seen in English to English Kudoz section. I don't think there are any abusers in that section simply because it doesn't offer any 'free translation'. I don't think the X to X Kudoz sections need any limits on number of questions
I care about and appreciate my colleagues' professional opinions and enjoy pro translators' discussions which actually lead to all of us being more learned in the end of the day. In such cases, consulting them or being consulted by them 15 or 50 times a day is a pleasure! Such cases should be considered in the equation.
Let's try the adjustments and see what the 1-5-15 aftershocks will bring...
[Edited at 2005-05-29 03:57] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Sorry, but the problem is with the DAILY level.... | May 29, 2005 |
Marcus Malabad wrote:
15 questions are not too many. I usually get 10K-15K+ word projects and I *would* pose 15+ questions and would have no qualms about it. I normally don't of course since I find the answers myself. The 15-question limit was arrived at after 4 years or dicussion. People should learn to accept that.
[Edited at 2005-05-29 01:22]
Most competent translators regularly work on 10K-15K+ projects regularly, but the point is that isn't your output over a 24 hour period. Let's say this takes you 3 days - are you now going to say you wouldn't have qualms of posing 15 x 3 = 45 questions? Come off it.
Four years of talks to reach this? Well let's consider what took 4 years:
1.
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Steffen Walter
Германия
Local time: 01:26
Член ProZ.com c 2002
английский => немецкий
+ ...
| 15 questions in total at end of project, if I got Marcus right | May 29, 2005 |
Deborah do Carmo wrote:
Most competent translators regularly work on 10K-15K+ projects regularly, but the point is that isn't your output over a 24 hour period. Let's say this takes you 3 days - are you now going to say you wouldn't have qualms of posing 15 x 3 = 45 questions? Come off it.
Hi Deborah,
You simply have to accept that the methodology of handling a project of e.g. 10k words varies across translators. Some would ask questions along the way, some would save them till the end, i.e. until they exhausted all means of research and contextual hints they came across. In the latter case, 15 questions might be asked on the very same day.
What I'd ask for in this discussion is a little more tolerance. We should not confuse the askers referred to in Marcus's example with the (IMHO) very few who truly abuse the system.
My 2c,
Steffen
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Four years of talks to reach this? Let's consider 4 easy questions and answers, will take roughly 4 minutes.
Q = Who presently and consistently asks 15 questions a day?
A = Someone seriously out of their depth who doesn't check his/her dictionaries, site glossaries, offsite aids, WWW or usually provide context either.
Q = Is there a name to describe this type of individual?
A = Many I suppose, but for the purpose of this let's say a site abuser (i.e. person ... See more Four years of talks to reach this? Let's consider 4 easy questions and answers, will take roughly 4 minutes.
Q = Who presently and consistently asks 15 questions a day?
A = Someone seriously out of their depth who doesn't check his/her dictionaries, site glossaries, offsite aids, WWW or usually provide context either.
Q = Is there a name to describe this type of individual?
A = Many I suppose, but for the purpose of this let's say a site abuser (i.e. person who abuses site and goodwill of others to get his/her job done)
Q = But hold on, do site abusers pay for this privilege?
A = Currently not, hmmmm
Q = Well they obviously need the help and there's enough suffering from KudoZitis out there willing to give it, so what next?
A = Well, let's make them an offer they can't refuse - 15 questions a day x 365 days a year for 120 USD
And someone dares to add......
Q = But won't serious translators find this upsetting/discouraging in practice, when implemented?
A = (with one eye on the bank balance)Who????
"Uncharitable extremist" I have been labelled today. Hmmm, ok but while I would honestly applaud any effort to to make the site live up to its P-R-O-Z name and would applaud any effort to make Platinum a worthwhile investment for a serious linguist, this is aimed at the wrong target audience. If after 4 years, this wasn't noticed, then take heed..... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | On the topic of acceptance......... | May 29, 2005 |
Hi Deborah,
You simply have to accept that the methodology of handling a project of e.g. 10k words varies across translators. Some would ask questions along the way, some would save them till the end, i.e. until they exhausted all means of research and contextual hints they came across. In the latter case, 15 questions might be asked on the very same day.
What I'd ask for in this discussion is a little more tolerance. We should not confuse the askers referred to in Mar... See more Hi Deborah,
You simply have to accept that the methodology of handling a project of e.g. 10k words varies across translators. Some would ask questions along the way, some would save them till the end, i.e. until they exhausted all means of research and contextual hints they came across. In the latter case, 15 questions might be asked on the very same day.
What I'd ask for in this discussion is a little more tolerance. We should not confuse the askers referred to in Marcus's example with the (IMHO) very few who truly abuse the system.
My 2c,
Steffen[/quote]
Yes, few (but an ever-increasing number) do abuse the system but how does now allowing them to do so 15 times a day condoned for a minimal amount of money for the privilege help?
I would have no problem with the scenario you describe Steffen, obviously if one of my trusted colleagues was in obvious need of help and on a demanding project, most of us would climb in and assist - but for a real Pro to have to ask that many questions is an exception and that can be catered for - my problem is potentially opening this site up to daily and consistent abuse of 15 questions and my issue is who does this really benefit?
I always try and assist where I can, when I can - if the points were done away with, that wouldn't change. I know all too well what pressure we all work under.
My issue is the upper threshold not the idea of limits.
My issue is who that upper threshold will benefit and who it will discourage further.
Anyway, I've made my point How long serious translators remain tolerant, remains to be seen. I personally only enjoy KudoZ for the feeling of community and for what I can learn, if that community is going to be overrun like it presently is on PT»EN by site abusers and what is now a breach of rules (too many questions) is going to be condoned as long as one pays - I'll have to consider if its the place for me. Luckily my other language pair DU»EN is not without its problems but is still a worthwhile experience at the moment from my perspective.
Good luck with the changes, however my misgivings remain. ▲ Collapse
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Marcus Malabad wrote:
15 questions are not too many.
I agree ... unless someone actually posts 15 questions every single day of the year.
An annual limit to preclude such extreme behavior may be wise to add to the daily limit. For example, a Platinum member may be able to post 15 questions in one day, but no more than 1,500 questions per year.
I have been posting questions since April 3, 2001. My total so far is 75 questions. That is an average of about 19 questions per year.
So, although I would prefer a daily limit of 10 rather than 15 questions for Platinums, I can understand the reluctance of some to give up a higher daily limit, and, moreover, I fully appreciate Enrique's point:
two2tango wrote:
And what would be the "right" limit?
10 per day?
5 per day?
Pick any number and somebody will find it too low and someone else will find it too high.
... but I cannot imagine any serious member objecting to a limit of 1,500 questions per year.
Again, this is just an arbitrary number to illustrate the point of how an annual limit would work in conjunction with a daily limit. We don't have to fight over the actual figure, since nothing of the kind is being planned at this time anyway.
[Edited at 2005-05-29 06:41]
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langnet
Италия
Local time: 01:26
итальянский => немецкий
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| What about a weekly limit? | May 30, 2005 |
Fuad Yahya wrote: Marcus Malabad wrote:
15 questions are not too many.
I agree ... unless someone actually posts 15 questions every single day of the year. An annual limit to preclude such extreme behavior may be wise to add to the daily limit. For example, a Platinum member may be able to post 15 questions in one day, but no more than 1,500 questions per year.
Why don't set a weekly limit, for Platinum Members, let's say 20 or 30 questions a week (these would be only 3 to 4 questions a day!)? That would IMO be enough for those who adopt the "ask all questions at end of project" way and would discourage those who ask KudoZ (too many) questions too easily and regularily (more frequent in my language combination than real "abuse") by "forcing" them to do some economy on their "budget" (and maybe some more Internet research). "Unused" questions of one week could be summed up to the limit amount of the following week and so on, so if one used only 10 questions the first week one can ask 30 (or 40) questions the next week etc., such having a sufficient "margin" for those "really difficult" jobs which might require some more questions to be asked when it comes to it...
I also like Lothar's idea:
Why not charge points for asking, with the points charged going to the account of the most helpful answerer? Each question should cost at least 20 points, so it's cheaper for the asker to use a dictionary in the first instance.
Or else: something like paying Brownies for consulting the BB when a certain (low) limit of questions is exceeded. This way, ProZies who contribute actively might benefit from that, especially those who are not Platinum and therefore not "allowed" a higher limit. Or maybe a combination of both (rather low basic and accumulative limits both for Platinum and Non-Platinum members and the possibility to "buy more" on the basis of "questions asked" and "questions answered").
In my SC there are a lot of collegues who are not Platinum but contribute regularily with very valid answers to many Platinums, many of these contributing much less. OK, they probably are not likely to ask 5+ or even 15+ questions a day, but what if they need to one day? Helped a lot of people throughout the year and once they need help themselves... "sorry, you exceeded your (daily/weekly/monthly...) limit"? With a Q/A ratio of 100/2000? I wouldn't really like that...
What I personally don't like in my SC are those who regularily drop by ONLY to ask help (i.e. questions) when THEY need to without bothering others needing a hand or a hint. There are quite a few... Well, one can ignore these askers (and I personally do so), but nevertheless this is not OK and I feel that this is some kind of abuse because it is simply selfish. And IMO it doesn't matter that there will always be some "good soul" (or "KudoZ point grabbers"?) ready to give an answer. Bad manners need some education
So far, just some Eurocents of mine...
[Edited at 2005-05-30 17:24]
| | | | | A weekly or monthly "control period" would work just as well as, perhaps even better than, annual | May 30, 2005 |
langnet wrote:
Why don't set a weekly limit, for Platinum Members, let's say 20 or 30 questions a week (these would be only 3 to 4 questions a day!)?
That should do the trick. The idea is that on a single day, a translator may have a reason to post as many as 10-15 questions, but if that were to be a regular thing, we would be back in abuse territory. A second control layer would stop that leak.
langnet wrote:
"Unused" questions of one week could be summed up to the limit amount of the following week and so on, so if one used only 10 questions the first week one can ask 30 (or 40) questions the next week etc.,
I would not go that far. That would have the effect of undoing all the controls. Most people would eventually end up with a limit of 15 questions per day every day, which is what we are trying to curb.
Why not charge points for asking?
The only reason I see is that we should not make the simple act of asking a question seem like a punishable act. We should actually encourage questions. Without them, we have no KudoZ. We should only prevent excess, and we should do that by stopping it, not just by discouraging it by making it cost some BrowniZ.
langnet wrote:
In my SC there are a lot of collegues who are not Platinum but contribute regularily with very valid answers to many Platinums, many of these contributing much less. OK, they probably are not likely to ask 5+ or even 15+ questions a day, but what if they need to one day? Helped a lot of people throughout the year and once they need help themselves... "sorry, you exceeded your (daily/weekly/monthly...) limit"? With a Q/A ratio of 100/2000? I wouldn't really like that...
The real question is not whether we should find a way to let deserving non-Platinums have Platinum privileges, but rather whether Platinum membership itself could be earned in part by a quantifiable non-monetary contribution to the site and the community. I would rather have that than create a complicated BrowniZ calculus.
[Edited at 2005-05-30 18:46]
[Edited at 2005-05-30 18:47]
[Edited at 2005-05-30 19:01]
| | | | | The ideas presented here will be evaluated after the limits are imposed | May 31, 2005 |
Thanks for the feedback and ideas!
As I said, we'll start with the approach I outlined in my earlier post--the one agreed to among the moderator group. After a period of review, we'll evaluate the effectiveness of the levels selected, and perhaps also consider some of the proposals made in this thread. It is true that the starting limits selected are arbitrary. We are open to the idea of raising or lowering the limits, we'll just have to see how they work in practice, discuss again,... See more Thanks for the feedback and ideas!
As I said, we'll start with the approach I outlined in my earlier post--the one agreed to among the moderator group. After a period of review, we'll evaluate the effectiveness of the levels selected, and perhaps also consider some of the proposals made in this thread. It is true that the starting limits selected are arbitrary. We are open to the idea of raising or lowering the limits, we'll just have to see how they work in practice, discuss again, and go from there. We'll ask for your input again at that time. Thank you all for participating in the process of improving KudoZ. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | great idea, but please consider banning askers if they are not grading their questions | May 31, 2005 |
Good evening, everyone
I think it's a great idea to limit the number of questions asked during a certain time frame. However, in my opinion it is just as important to track whether the askers are grading their questions. There seem to be a few people out there who ask an awful lot of questions without grading them. It might be possible to specify a time limit and a certain number of questions asked and if they are not being graded, the asker may be banned from asking any more questi... See more Good evening, everyone
I think it's a great idea to limit the number of questions asked during a certain time frame. However, in my opinion it is just as important to track whether the askers are grading their questions. There seem to be a few people out there who ask an awful lot of questions without grading them. It might be possible to specify a time limit and a certain number of questions asked and if they are not being graded, the asker may be banned from asking any more questions until s/he has closed the previous ones. What is your opinion? ▲ Collapse
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| How about posting this in a new thread | May 31, 2005 |
Christine Lam-Vokinger wrote:
It might be possible to specify a time limit and a certain number of questions asked and if they are not being graded, the asker may be banned from asking any more questions until s/he has closed the previous ones.
I remember reading some suggestions to this effect in some previous threads. If you feel strongly about this, you may consider starting a new thread on this topic. I know some who share your view on this matter.
I believe that once the new limits have been introduced, much of the behavior you describe will fade away. But for the new limits to be effective, I believe the following need to happen:
1. The one-question-per-day category needs to be reserved for members who pay the lowest annual dues ($00.00 at this time), not for non-members. If non-members are to be given the privilege, it should be a limited-time privilege (say a week or a month) so they could try out the system -- assuming their identity could be verified.
2. A registration fee should be introduced to help stop multiple profiles, especially if we want to keep the $00.00 membership level, which seems to have a majority support.
| | | | | I see more danger in the overdose of answers | Jun 2, 2005 |
I am a non platinum member. I am not really interested in getting translations via internet, and therefore, I won't become a paying member in the near future. However, I sometimes use the glossaries, and I thought it could be a nice thing to cooperate. My ratio Q/A is 0/40, and I have 57 kudoz points. I don't know what they are worth for and I am puzzled by the frenzy in harvesting as many points as you possibly can. The fact is that in my language pair kudoz is becoming rapidly dissapointing, n... See more I am a non platinum member. I am not really interested in getting translations via internet, and therefore, I won't become a paying member in the near future. However, I sometimes use the glossaries, and I thought it could be a nice thing to cooperate. My ratio Q/A is 0/40, and I have 57 kudoz points. I don't know what they are worth for and I am puzzled by the frenzy in harvesting as many points as you possibly can. The fact is that in my language pair kudoz is becoming rapidly dissapointing, not so much for the overdose of questions, but for the overdose of answers.
The main benefit I saw in the kudoz system was not the possibility of inmediately solving a doubt, but the corpus of knowledge accumulated over the years. That was my main reason for taking part on it. However, in the last two months the whole thing is getting out of control. The problem is that irrelevant questions, and even worse, irrelevant answers will render the system useless. It is a pity, for example, that we only bother in answering live questions (to gather points? why?)and that nobody takes the trouble to correct entries that are misleading.
That's my opinion. As I said, I am a non platinum member, and maybe it is just that I don't understand the spirit of the site. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
Великобритания
Local time: 00:26
испанский => английский
| As Marijke said, get rid of the point system and solve some of the glossary's problems | Jun 2, 2005 |
aldazabal wrote:
I am puzzled by the frenzy in harvesting as many points as you possibly can. The fact is that in my language pair kudoz is becoming rapidly dissapointing, not so much for the overdose of questions, but for the overdose of answers.
The main benefit I saw in the kudoz system was not the possibility of inmediately solving a doubt, but the corpus of knowledge accumulated over the years. That was my main reason for taking part on it. However, in the last two months the whole thing is getting out of control. The problem is that irrelevant questions, and even worse, irrelevant answers will render the system useless. It is a pity, for example, that we only bother in answering live questions (to gather points? why?)and that nobody takes the trouble to correct entries that are misleading.
That brings us back to what Marijke Singer said earlier in this thread (which I wholeheartedly agree with). Get rid of the point system and you solve a lot of problems in one go. Besides, in my opinion, the system is very unfair to any newcomer to this site. But this has been discussed several times before and should really be posted as another topic...
[Edited at 2005-06-02 16:00]
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