| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Ideas to encourage further (proper) use of the KudoZ disagree feature Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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| Option available today | Aug 11, 2006 |
mediamatrix wrote:
Where experienced users are found to be abusing the 'Disagree' option, and the moderator's attention is drawn to the matter as mentioned in point 1 above, then the moderator should be able to deduct 100 Kudoz points each time. And if the user's points fall below the 'beginners' points threshold, then they should see only 'Agree' and 'Neutral', like real beginners.
Users who abuse the peer comments can have their rights to use this feature blocked by moderators.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Linda 969
Local time: 19:57
Italian to English
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Henry wrote:
* Making disagrees blue (or colorless) (Nik-On/Off, langnet)
* Listing examples of clearly personal comments of the type that are not permitted. (Kim)
* Show the names of those who have hidden answers and their reasons given". (Cilian)
Thoughts?
IMO the color of disagrees doesn't make that much of a difference, and I think most of us are capable of coming up with appropriate comments - even when dealing with totally outrageous answers.
I agree that some action should be taken against people who hide their answers often, but I feel blacklisting is too stigmatizing. How about removing their rights to use the "hide" feature for a period of time ?
Slightly OT: I think much would be gained in terms of quality by implementing a system whereby experienced KudoZ contributors with a little spare time can volunteer to double as mentors for new users. A pretty substantial proportion of the really poor answers (and questions) that turn up on the IT>EN board is posted by clueless, but often well-meaning people who probably need guidance more than rebuking. I assume this may also be the case elsewhere.
Alternatively, new users could be encouraged to "lurk and learn" before they jump into the arena. Just a thought.
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Have no strong views one way or the other on the first 2 points, but I'm not a fan of this one:
Henry wrote:
* Show the names of those who have hidden answers and their reasons given". (Cilian)
I fail utterly to see how this helps promote quality. Even if you decide to hide an answer because it received 47 disagrees, you could easily lie about why you're hiding it. Hiding answers, for whatever reason, but especially if you, as the answerer, realise that the answer is inappropriate, improves quality by:
a) preventing that answer being selected, even in error
b) removing the answer from the list of possibilities for those searching for a term subsequently, and who bother to open the full page to look at all the suggestions.
Two further points in response to other suggestions:
1. Those of us working in 'major' pairs would do well to remember that suggested improvements based on accumulating a certain number of points or answers (selected or not) are not always appropriate solutions for 'minor' pairs, where this process could take an inordinate amount of time
2. Proposing a list of standardised disagree options could easily lead to "lazy" disagreeing, unless one is forced to enter free text (as is the case now), in which case what's the point of it? It sounds appealing on the face of it, but if quality is the objective, I think people should be encouraged to think through and then explain their "Disagree" more specifically to the answer in point.
| | | | Refugio
Local time: 10:57
Spanish to English
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[/quote]
You've raised an excellent point, Amy. When does a peer comment cross the line from the linguistic to the personal?
[/quote]
[Edited at 2006-08-11 21:55] [/quote]
Is it also being proposed to eliminate the personal from the agrees? Could we no longer say perfect, nice job, excellent, etc.? How about long time no see, glad you're back, etc.? Those comments are not linguistic either.
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IanW (X)
Local time: 19:57
German to English
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Firstly, my apologies to Catherine for my part in the hi-jacking of her thread. Although I have already noticed the impact of this thread - a change in mentality which, in my opinion, is the most effective solution possible for this problem - it's very encouraging to see the site staff looking into concrete solutions.
Incidentally, Enrique was complaining about the use of words like "rubbish" in the forums. I'd just like to point out that one of my thread, which contains this word i... See more Firstly, my apologies to Catherine for my part in the hi-jacking of her thread. Although I have already noticed the impact of this thread - a change in mentality which, in my opinion, is the most effective solution possible for this problem - it's very encouraging to see the site staff looking into concrete solutions.
Incidentally, Enrique was complaining about the use of words like "rubbish" in the forums. I'd just like to point out that one of my thread, which contains this word in the title, was in response to an assertion than even "rubbish" answers should be appreciated. I can't think of a suitable euphemism: "laughably inappropriate" fits the bill, but is hardly kinder.
(1) Making disagrees blue (or colorless)
Disagree: I fail to see what use this would be except to the amateur pyschologists among us.
(2) Listing examples of clearly personal comments of the type that are not permitted.
Agree: Good idea, although care has to be taken to ensure that this is implemented in the same way everywhere. There's a world of difference between being critical and being rude although some people see no difference between the two. It should also be remembered that we are all adults who should be able to cope with constructive criticism.
(3) Show the names of those who have hidden answers and their reasons given".
Agree: Unlike Charlie, I think this would work very well. However, if technically feasible, I would also show the number of agrees and disagrees the answer received before being hidden.
This would mean that, while regular and reliable contributor Fred Bloggs might hide the occasional answer with "Sorry, read the question too quickly", Babelfishstar2000 will soon get the message after having every hopeless answer bombarded with disagrees which remain visible even after the answer itself has been hidden. In other words, taking away the "escape route" without the need to leave the - for want of a better word - "rubbish" to drag the standard down. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | disagree should not be taken so seriously, it is just one posibility and furthermore your opinion. | Aug 12, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
Ideas presented for KudoZ, to encourage further (proper) use of the disagree feature to improve the quality of KudoZ discourse:
* Making disagrees blue (or colorless) (Nik-On/Off, langnet)
* Listing examples of clearly personal comments of the type that are not permitted. (Kim)
* Show the names of those who have hidden answers and their reasons given". (Cilian)
Thoughts?
.......................................
History: cbolton's "disagree drive" thread had to be locked due to rules violations. I am reposting to get feedback on a few concrete proposals that arose in that discussion that I feel are worthy of consideration.
I would ask any participants in this new thread to post your thoughts on these proposals with just one or two posts.
Thanks in advance!
| | | | transparx 
United States
Local time: 13:57
English to Italian
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Henry wrote:
* Show the names of those who have hidden answers and their reasons given". (Cilian)
Thoughts?
.......................................
<
I believe that listing the names of those who have hidden answers is both practically vacuous and slightly unprofessional. If this new system is voted in by the majority, I feel that the old one should be at least grandfathered.
I have hidden answers myself –though not that many. When I joined the site, I actually wrote to the staff asking whether there were any restrictions. The answer was that one could hide as many answers as desired. I don’t see why the number of hidden answers should now, all of a sudden, become public information.
I would like to remind everyone that many new members are encouraged to “accumulate” Kudoz points by what they read on the site. They are made to believe that the more points they have, the easier it will be to get translation jobs. This is perhaps one of the reasons why they sometimes answer too hastily -though in good faith- only to realize later that they made a big mistake. I believe that most people hide many more answers at the beginning of their "careers" than they do later. Why should they be put to shame? (For this is how some senior, experienced –but unfortunately often arrogant- members might end up construing the meaning of “Hidden Answers: X” –judging from what I have had occasion to read.)
The suggestion made by Ozden Arikan is a sensible one. However, if you decide to go with it, please do notify all members –I was never notified that forum posts could only be edited for 24 hours once submitted, and that really disturbed me.
Linda Battistuzzi’s suggestion (i.e., that the right to hide answers be temporarily removed) is also sensible, in my opinion.
This site is great in many respects and the Kudoz system is extremely useful to all of us.
The color of disagrees is unimportant. What’s important is the attitude that individual members have. I, for example, have received very nasty, personal comments under neutrals; one of them was deleted by a moderator, but others are still visible, and they still bother me.
| | | | | Enrique: What about your promise to restore the Kudoz advice page? | Aug 12, 2006 |
Why not get rid of the some of hurt feelings before they are there? It is now very clear that many newcomers to the site are totally unaware of what Kudoz actually is when they first start entering questions or answers. People are completely taken aback by comments that suggest their translation is less than perfect. As transparx says, many newcomers see Kudoz as a first step towards the job market. One newcomer this week received a neutral comment from someone who is an expert in that field and... See more Why not get rid of the some of hurt feelings before they are there? It is now very clear that many newcomers to the site are totally unaware of what Kudoz actually is when they first start entering questions or answers. People are completely taken aback by comments that suggest their translation is less than perfect. As transparx says, many newcomers see Kudoz as a first step towards the job market. One newcomer this week received a neutral comment from someone who is an expert in that field and the comment was professional and to the point. But the FACT that she received it upset her so much that her response was to say 'if this is the way things are done on Kudoz, I'm never going to help again and will quit the site'. This was because there is no longer ANY introductory page about Kudoz. That was removed in the 'great sweep' and all requests to restore it have been ignored, despite promises to the contrary.
In the case I just mentioned, a Mod was informed immediately and I put in a note to explain that the comment was normal procedure and she should not get upset. The Mod also contacted her and so that crisis was eliminated.
But that was not the first time I've seen people truly shocked by the fact they got a peer comment like that.
Why don't you do something more hands-on like restore that page explaining Kudoz, its goals, etc. to people. Colours don't matter-words do. Please put back the page you removed.
[Edited at 2006-08-12 10:57] ▲ Collapse
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| Thanks, transparx | Aug 12, 2006 |
transparx wrote: Henry wrote:
* Show the names of those who have hidden answers and their reasons given". (Cilian) I have hidden answers myself –though not that many. When I joined the site, I actually wrote to the staff asking whether there were any restrictions. The answer was that one could hide as many answers as desired. I don’t see why the number of hidden answers should now, all of a sudden, become public information. I would like to remind everyone that many new members are encouraged to “accumulate” Kudoz points by what they read on the site. They are made to believe that the more points they have, the easier it will be to get translation jobs. This is perhaps one of the reasons why they sometimes answer too hastily -though in good faith- only to realize later that they made a big mistake. I believe that most people hide many more answers at the beginning of their "careers" than they do later. Why should they be put to shame? (For this is how some senior, experienced –but unfortunately often arrogant- members might end up construing the meaning of “Hidden Answers: X” –judging from what I have had occasion to read.)
I don't think the point of this suggestion was to shame anyone., and I don't think there would have to be such effect. As it stands, sometimes an answer disappears and one doesn't know why. If there were a note saying, "Henry removed his answer. Reason: I prefer others' suggestions.", perhaps quality would be enhanced. (And perhaps not! - Maybe we should just have a "retract" option that does not make it invisible.)
I believe that listing the names of those who have hidden answers is both practically vacuous and slightly unprofessional. If this new system is voted in by the majority, I feel that the old one should be at least grandfathered.
Good point. Past hidden answers would not have a reason-for-hiding on file, and therefore there would not be much point in showing whose answers were hidden. So past hidden answers will remain hidden.
The suggestion made by Ozden Arikan is a sensible one. However, if you decide to go with it, please do notify all members –I was never notified that forum posts could only be edited for 24 hours once submitted, and that really disturbed me.
OK, if the decision is made to make any changes to KudoZ, we will notify all KudoZ users.
This site is great in many respects and the Kudoz system is extremely useful to all of us.
The color of disagrees is unimportant. What’s important is the attitude that individual members have. I, for example, have received very nasty, personal comments under neutrals; one of them was deleted by a moderator, but others are still visible, and they still bother me.
Sorry to hear that. Please submit a support ticket with links. If rules were violated, we will remove them.
| | | | | And what about those who are constantly slipping in comments against long-standing Prozians? | Aug 12, 2006 |
Enrique wrote:
I would like to read a KudoZ-related thread without terms such as “rubbish” and “garbage”. I believe this kind of language damages the objectivity of the discussion. I also think that you can be very professional and yet be able to produce a linguistic peer comment to an answer you consider bad without retorting to personal remarks.
Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto
For example, here's a comment from a relatively new person on the site:
transparx wrote:
I would like to remind everyone that many new members are encouraged to “accumulate” Kudoz points by what they read on the site. They are made to believe that the more points they have, the easier it will be to get translation jobs. This is perhaps one of the reasons why they sometimes answer too hastily -though in good faith- only to realize later that they made a big mistake. I believe that most people hide many more answers at the beginning of their "careers" than they do later. Why should they be put to shame? (For this is how some senior, experienced –but unfortunately often arrogant- members might end up construing the meaning of “Hidden Answers: X” –judging from what I have had occasion to read.)
This is also slightly off-topic but is a reply to a comment made in this forum discussion.
Why are are terms 'senior, experienced' linked to 'often arrogant'? This is becoming almost systematic . There are those who constantly use the forum discussions to pound the theme of 'nasty', 'arrogant', 'self-important jerks' when referring to fellow (?) translators who 'dared' make comments to others who may indeed be less experienced. (These were terms actually used-and afaik, no one stepped in to censure them).
When I first joined Proz, dictionaryesque questions were greeted with a barrage of "this is a site for pro translators. look it up yourself'. Not one comment-a whole barrage. No one whined about the comments-and the dictionary questions disappeared. If someone started to post over 5-6 questions that were all from the same doc, then everyone jumped in to squash all that folllowed, with the comment "site abuse".
(This was just to show how much Kudoz has changed over the years. Site etiquette was introduced and it did improve things considerably.)
I don't think that this constant attempt to divide the community into 'them and us' is going to have a very good effect in the long run. So far all the criticism has been aimed at those who have trouble accepting the unreasonably 'low level' of some questions and/or answers.
But just as much intolerance and relentless attacks are being slipped in against those trying to get the quality of the site up to a more professional level. The relentless vindictive attempts to equate criticism of an answer with 'a lack of respect' for the person who posted that answer is causing potentially permanent harm to relations between people who should all be colleagues on this site. And all the kindergarten-level name-calling should be stopped as well. I thought that personal remarks were not acceptable. Here they are aimed at 'individuals' who are perceived as a 'group'. What's the difference?-it's still attacks aimed at the person, not constructive (professional) remarks in any case. Why haven't these slurs been cited as improper and stopped?
Imho, agrees should be given only by people who KNOW through their own professional experience that the answer could be right.
Neutrals and disagrees should be given with explanations as to why they are being made.
The colour makes no difference.
[Edited at 2006-08-12 13:14]
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 13:57
Spanish to English
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| Blocking appears not to be working effectively | Aug 12, 2006 |
Enrique wrote: mediamatrix wrote:
Where experienced users are found to be abusing the 'Disagree' option, and the moderator's attention is drawn to the matter as mentioned in point 1 above, then the moderator should be able to deduct 100 Kudoz points each time. And if the user's points fall below the 'beginners' points threshold, then they should see only 'Agree' and 'Neutral', like real beginners.
Users who abuse the peer comments can have their rights to use this feature blocked by moderators. Regards, Enrique
If the moderators are able to block a user's right to use thiis feature (I presume you mean Kudoz as a whole), and as there is still sufficient abuse to warrant extensive forum debate on the issue, then I'd suggest that maybe the moderators are not wielding the 'block' button often enough. And/or, users who feel aggrieved are not notifying the moderators often enough.
There is a very substantial difference between keeping an abuser off Kudoz altogether and my proposal, which would make it clear both to users and to abusers of the 'politeness rating' of all answerers.
If long-term member XYZ gives an answer, and everyone can see that (s)he 'Specializes in field' and has 2000 'Pro points in category' - but at the same time is limited to using the 'Neutral' option instead of the 'Disgree', then it is clear to everyone that XYZ has a poor track record on abuse of 'Disagree'.
A parallel may be drawn here with penalities for delinquents in society at large. Given the choice between 'locking them up' (read: banning from Kudoz) and having them do 'community service' (keeping them active for the common good, but with restricted privileges), there's a marked tendency to prefer the latter.
| | | | transparx
United States
Local time: 13:57
English to Italian
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| thanks ...and sorry! | Aug 12, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
transparx wrote:
... If this new system is voted in by the majority, I feel that the old one should be at least grandfathered.
Good point. Past hidden answers would not have a reason-for-hiding on file, and therefore there would not be much point in showing whose answers were hidden. So past hidden answers will remain hidden.
Thank you very much for responding, Henry!
[quote]writeaway wrote:
For example, here's a comment from a relatively new person on the site: ...
[quote]
I apologize, writeaway. It really wasn't my intention to offend anyone -note that I used "some" and "often" precisely because I didn't want to be perceived as trying to generalize. In fact, I think that most senior members (including you) are very good professionals.
I was just thinking about my own experience, but since this is clearly off-topic, I will say no more here. Instead, I will follow Henry's advice and submit a support ticket.
[Edited at 2006-08-12 17:34]
[Edited at 2006-08-12 17:34]
[Edited at 2006-08-12 17:35]
[Edited at 2006-08-12 17:35]
[Edited at 2006-08-12 17:36]
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| and my loonie | Aug 12, 2006 |
Color:
I do not think it really matters. Let's make Agree -red and Disagree -blue with, say, gray Neutral for a change. It IS a game and there is more fun in it than anything else, as it was rightly noted above.
Grounds for disagreement (and probably for Neutral) is a MUST. There should not be any disagree without grounds allowed (I believe it can be done technically).
Examples of unsuitable comments: it does not make sense as someone can write a book on it.
... See more Color:
I do not think it really matters. Let's make Agree -red and Disagree -blue with, say, gray Neutral for a change. It IS a game and there is more fun in it than anything else, as it was rightly noted above.
Grounds for disagreement (and probably for Neutral) is a MUST. There should not be any disagree without grounds allowed (I believe it can be done technically).
Examples of unsuitable comments: it does not make sense as someone can write a book on it.
Names and Reasons for hidden answers...I do not think it is that important. Who cares what the reasons might be...
From recent 'novelties' I like the Comments to the Glossary entries. I believe that it can help to those looking for answers to find a better equivalent. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The system works... | Aug 12, 2006 |
Sorry folks, but sometimes I do not get the discussions about the Kudoz. I use it extensively (in terms of research.. and as asker of course and answerer) and have the impression that it works fine.
Yes, there is one or the other unpleasant to read "disagree" (IMO colour does not matter, rather the argument) and people sometimes get a bit harsh, but if so (and it is clearly rather seldom) you actually can quiet those down by your own polite behaviour.
Never saw anything that w... See more Sorry folks, but sometimes I do not get the discussions about the Kudoz. I use it extensively (in terms of research.. and as asker of course and answerer) and have the impression that it works fine.
Yes, there is one or the other unpleasant to read "disagree" (IMO colour does not matter, rather the argument) and people sometimes get a bit harsh, but if so (and it is clearly rather seldom) you actually can quiet those down by your own polite behaviour.
Never saw anything that woud be politically totally incorrect, so to speak.
And why show hidden answers? I have hidden answers myself (without earning an endless list of disagrees before) because I figured out that the answer was not precise enough or simply wrong, the references were bad or I simply misinterpreted the question .... why would anybody be interessted in seeing things that I myself found under the level of being worth published?
Hope I could help enhancing the discussion a bit.
Have all a nice weekend.
Stefanie
[Edited at 2006-08-12 21:50] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:57
Spanish to English
| No blue disagrees please, etc. | Aug 12, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
* Making disagrees blue (or colorless) (Nik-On/Off, langnet)
No, I don't agree with this and fail to understand why people find the red so offensive. A disagree is a disagree and the very purpose is to draw everybody's attention to it (especially the asker's).
* Listing examples of clearly personal comments of the type that are not permitted. (Kim)
I don't see why there shouldn't be a list of suitable/unsuitable comments in the KudoZ FAQ page (or whatever it's called) so that newcomers can get an idea of what is acceptable and what isn't. After all, we shouldn't assume that it's obvious to everyone (just as it isn't clear at first read to me what I'm supposed to put in each box on my tax return). However, I am against an obligatory drop down menu displaying reasons for disagreeing. Personally, I would prefer to continue to explain why I don't support an answer in my own words and I don't much like the way we are so often forced to live in a "box" in our modern society. Please don't curtail any more of our "freedom".
* Show the names of those who have hidden answers and their reasons given". (Cilian)
Yes, I agree with this. Even if it is a "legitimate" reason from a well-meaning person. I have hidden many answers myself in the past, but I wouldn't object to having my name displayed if this is a way to prevent serial point grabbers from posting fast and furious answers which can often be way off the mark (because they don't seem to read the question properly, if at all).
I would also like to add that I appreciate Ozden Arikan's comments...
Secondly, as the member of a small KudoZ SC where things are rather smooth, where people respect rules and unwanted behavior can be easily contained and correction fastly encouraged, I am slowly getting tired of having everything changed and changed and then changed again in Kudoz. I appreciate the effort and eloquency invested in related forum discussions, but perhaps it would be much better if the posters began their postings describing the "xxx problem in the xxx SC" instead of "the KudoZ problem." Perhaps, this way it will turn out that all we need is increase the number of moderators in big pairs...
...and I realise how nauseating it must be for others involved in smaller SCs to hear us complain about issues that seem to be the norm in the larger ones and I agree that more moderators might help to solve many perceived problems/irritations/frustrations (however you want to label them).
[Edited at 2006-08-12 22:17]
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