Glossary entry

Italian term or phrase:

regolare/irregolare

English translation:

with/without residence permit

Added to glossary by lizzy g
Sep 22, 2006 10:20
17 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Italian term

regolare/irregolare

Italian to English Social Sciences Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. Immigration
Used to describe immigrants working in Italy. I imagine the meaning might be legal/illegal, however, I suspect the translation is something less 'severe'.

Any thoughts?

Discussion

lizzy g (asker) Sep 22, 2006:
Full sentence Not much context, I'm afraid. There is just a list of numbers of immigrants, some of which are followed by 'regolare', others by 'irregolare'
Linda 969 Sep 22, 2006:
Hi Lizzy - can you give us the full sentence? Thanks!
irenef Sep 22, 2006:
As I was saying, I apologise to lizzy and James. I was convinced the posting read: "lavoratori regolari/irregolari", which explains my answer. Otherwise, all the answers below apply. Sorry! ;-(
irenef Sep 22, 2006:
I have to apologise for misreading the question. I was c
I must be working too much...

Proposed translations

+3
19 mins
Selected

having/not having residence permit

tirando in ballo il permesso di soggiorno...
Peer comment(s):

agree maryrose : In Italy, this is the crux of it, irrespective of any more general terms.
2 hrs
Thank you!
agree Hebat-Allah El Ashmawy
4 hrs
;)
agree Umberto Cassano : brava, concisa e concreta...sempre così
1 day 5 hrs
Grazie dei complimenti!:)
neutral Anna Strowe : If residence permit is what they're talking about... Anyway, I would say "with/without residency permit"; "having/not having" doesn't sound natural to me. (US English).
1 day 5 hrs
Right!I've never heard "with/without"...
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I really appreciate your contributions. I have decided to go for this translation on the strengths of peer agreements."
58 mins

with/without documents

Twenty years ago I used to translate this as legal/illegal, but the times have changed and now there are thousands of sans papière (excuse my French) immigrants everywhere. Now I use the US term. In a European context you could use the French. If your readers are European sociologists, they all know each others terms.

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Note added at 1 hr (2006-09-22 11:36:39 GMT)
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Oh "irregolare" in the case of immigrants specifically means firstly not having a "permesso di soggiorno" stay permit. You can have a permit for study, medical reasons, etc. and then not having all that follows as a consequence. However, in the case of a work, an Italian citizen who moonlights, works under the counter, has "un lavoro irregolare" i.e. without documents.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-22 12:46:04 GMT)
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Hi irenef. this financial translation I'm doing is so boring :-) As I see it (from lots of research and talking to sociology professors) and as I have regularly translated for years:
immigrant without documents, i.e. an immigrant who does not have a stay permit and as a consequence has no other documents and cannot declare tax on her/his work
undeclared work: often termed informal work or alternatively undeclared work because it isn't declared on income tax returns

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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-22 12:57:03 GMT)
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We need more context: undeclared work by immigrants without documents. I agree with you if what the adjective refers to is work even if done by an immigrant, but not if refers directly to the immigrant.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-22 13:03:03 GMT)
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Yes, I agree but it is possible to be an undeclared worker and not be an immigrant. At the same time it is also possible to be an immigrant without documents who doesn't do any work and is therefore not an undeclared worker.
Peer comment(s):

neutral irenef : Hi James, I work almost exclusively with sociology professors; that's why I feel quite strongly about this. Being an immigrant is a condition, while being involved in undeclared work is another condition. Often, the two things come together ;-)
1 hr
I think we've exhausted it, back to the boring balance sheet.
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+1
11 hrs
Italian term (edited): irregolare

irregular

In EU Economic and Social Committee they seem to use "irregular immigrants/migrants", but this may easily be a careless translation on their part. No "regular immigrants" though; only "regularising of their situation".
(Note: if you substitute IT for EN in the end of URL-s below, you can see the italian version)

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Note added at 11 hrs (2006-09-22 22:18:54 GMT)
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Don't know what I did wrong with the first URL... sorry for that. But it works when you copy and paste it.
Example sentence:

...illegal employment of irregular immigrants infringes existing labour conditions...

... striving to prevent exploitation of irregular immigrants.

Peer comment(s):

agree Alberto Orengo : legal, or as regualr as Killy writes, are the ones I have always heard around.
17 hrs
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20 hrs

permit of stay/no permit of stay

Hi Lizzy,

This is an interesting question and most answers seem to be applicable. In the US we refer to 'legal/illegal' immigrants who may have 'papers/ no papers', or as James said, 'with documents/without documents'. Also I've seen often (international) 'residency card/no residency card', or the old (US) 'green card/no green card'.
Since this is what seems to be a formal list, I would consider what they put on those annoying forms we all have to fill out, i.e., 'permit to stay' (which James actually mentioned-don't mean to step on anyone's toes).
Maybe this is a succinct, easy solution.

Emily
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2 mins

declared/undeclared

.

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Note added at 15 mins (2006-09-22 10:36:40 GMT)
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That's how these workers are usually referred to. Being a "lavoratore regolare" means having a regular work contract, where the employer pays all due taxes, social security contributions and so forth.
Good luck!

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Note added at 20 mins (2006-09-22 10:41:32 GMT)
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NOTE: not having a regular work contract does not mean being an "illegal" worker.
To my knowldge, illegal workers are those workers who do not have the right/permission to work (foreigners with a tourist visa, illegal immigrants and what not)

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Note added at 1 hr (2006-09-22 12:18:25 GMT)
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I'm sorry but I feel that this matter needs some further clarification.
I come across papers on employment policies / migration / welfare and so forth very often in my job.

I can safely say that "declared / undeclared" employment is actually used and any audience will perfectly know what it is.

Alternatively, you could also use
*formal / informal workers*

Informal workers may be migrants or Italian nationals (in this case) working cash in hand, without a regular work contract.
Nothing to do with residence or work permits.

Being in "declared/undeclared" or "formal/informal" employment depends on whether or not you have a proper work contract.
Obviosly, if you are a foreigner and you don't have permission to work in a given country, you cannot possibly be offered a proper work contract in that country.

Hope it helps

;-|

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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-22 12:48:29 GMT)
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Me again. Here is an explanation of the term in Italian:

"Per lavoratori irregolari - spiega XXX YYY della Cgil - si intendono lavoro in nero e lavoro in grigio, falsi co.co.co. o lavoratori a progetto che erano forme di lavoro subordinato a tutti gli effetti."
"Lavoratori stranieri e minori irregolari in aumento. Oltre la metà delle aziende ispezionate sono risultate non regolari, solo 5 hanno aderito al programma di emersione del lavoro nero. "

http://www.vareseweb.it/lavoro/articoli-lavoro/2004/maggio/6...

Immigrants, especially if they are illegal, don't have much choice. That's why a high number of immigrant workers are not registered /declared.

Anyway, here is another useful link in English:
www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/research/pdf/t0NTAVZ4.pdf

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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-22 13:17:45 GMT)
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One last thing and then I'll get back to my work and leave you alone.
To be precise, "irregolare" involves both undeclared and UNDER-declared work, though immigrants are more likely to be involved in the former.

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Note added at 21 hrs (2006-09-23 07:44:59 GMT)
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DOCUMENTED/ UNDOCUMENTED immigrants

this is what they are usually called in sociological and political jargon. You could simply put "documented" or "undocumented" next to each figure.

good luck with it!
Peer comment(s):

neutral James (Jim) Davis : Undeclared work!! Yes not declaring taxes, but not undeclared immigrants
1 hr
I'm sorry James but, to my knowledge, "undeclared work" is one of the most common definitions of "lavoro irregolare". I never said "undeclared immigrants". The point here is that immigrants are more likely to be involved in undeclared work.
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+1
13 mins

legal/illegal

see the number of entries in google http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Ille...

http://www.cis.org/topics/illegalimmigration.html
etc.

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Note added at 9 hrs (2006-09-22 19:57:38 GMT)
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...this is at least what I have always heard during my 5 years living in the UK... with mostly overseas housemates constantly worried about their stay.

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Note added at 1 day5 hrs (2006-09-23 15:46:39 GMT)
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...or, as you mention work, with or without work permit. The point is that legal/illegal can be applied to residence/work/tourism (e.g you can be a legal tourist but illegal worker). But if you specifically have to do with work issues, then you may use with/without work permit.
Peer comment(s):

agree Anna Strowe : I think this answer is the most comprehensive. If we don't know whether they mean with or without work permits or residency permits, this seems to cover the possibilities. "Legal/illegal" is also what I hear in the US.
1 day 5 hrs
Thanks Anna
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