May 27, 2007 05:33
17 yrs ago
French term
Canada
Experienced technical translator
Native in: Russian (Variant: Standard-Russia) 
, English (Variant: Canadian)
Works in: English to Russian, Russian to English
rapace d'homme
May offend
French to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
I am translating a story in which someone is cooking a meal according to a recipe from a very old and weird, ostensibly magic, cookbook, with very unfortunate consequences. At one point, she is to add something that the book lists as "rapace d'homme". She assumes that it is French for "Gentleman's Relish" which she adds and then something really nasty and slithering comes after her. So, clearly this rapace d'homme was not supposed to be the same as "Gentleman's Relish" which is a kind of anchovy paste.
The book I translate is in English, and the character is English-speaking too. But the cookbook she uses is in many weird languages, including French which she does not know very well. So the character misreads "rapace d'homme" as innocent and conventional "Gentleman's Relish" while it can be something entirely different and possibly sinister. Could it be "human flesh", for example? I don't know much French and the only meaning for "rapace" I found in a dictionary is "a bird of prey" which does not make much sense in my context.
Thanks in advance
The book I translate is in English, and the character is English-speaking too. But the cookbook she uses is in many weird languages, including French which she does not know very well. So the character misreads "rapace d'homme" as innocent and conventional "Gentleman's Relish" while it can be something entirely different and possibly sinister. Could it be "human flesh", for example? I don't know much French and the only meaning for "rapace" I found in a dictionary is "a bird of prey" which does not make much sense in my context.
Thanks in advance
Proposed translations
(English)
| 1 +1 | see more stabs in the dark |
Anne Goff
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| 3 | let's back it up |
peekay
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| 4 -1 | evil man |
Jean-Claude Gouin
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| 1 | see stabs in the dark below |
Melzie
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| 1 | Comment |
Bourth (X)
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Proposed translations
+1
54 mins
Selected
see more stabs in the dark
Since the cookbook calls for things like dragon's blood, I think you can maybe get away with leaving this intangible. "gentleman's relish" can be nicely balanced by something like "man's appetite".
I expect the term in French is suggestive more than anything else. So I think it's fair to leave it vague and suggestive in English, or whatever language.
For more tangible, I like Melzie's suggestion as well as the guess people've made on your post elsewhere: semen.
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Note added at 21 hrs (2007-05-28 02:40:23 GMT)
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The more I think about it the more I like the idea of keeping it intangible. I think it's important to leave it as something that could be misinterpreted as "gentleman's relish" (or some equivalent in Russian).
As a side note I see people debating the author's facility with French. I think it's a fair guess that the author speaks French. Her mother was French and according to interviews she's given she has non-English speaking Francophone family. So I doubt she made a mistake with "rapace d'homme" but she may have deliberately made up something fairly nonsensical.
Isn't the French in the recipe supposed to be a translation itself? So 'gentleman's relish' could be a misinterpretation of a mistranslation of goodness knows what.
Without talking to the author, I don't think there's any way to know. So you simply need something that seems to fit the tone of the book. I doubt 'testicle' or 'semen' would fit, but then I haven't read the book.
I expect the term in French is suggestive more than anything else. So I think it's fair to leave it vague and suggestive in English, or whatever language.
For more tangible, I like Melzie's suggestion as well as the guess people've made on your post elsewhere: semen.
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Note added at 21 hrs (2007-05-28 02:40:23 GMT)
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The more I think about it the more I like the idea of keeping it intangible. I think it's important to leave it as something that could be misinterpreted as "gentleman's relish" (or some equivalent in Russian).
As a side note I see people debating the author's facility with French. I think it's a fair guess that the author speaks French. Her mother was French and according to interviews she's given she has non-English speaking Francophone family. So I doubt she made a mistake with "rapace d'homme" but she may have deliberately made up something fairly nonsensical.
Isn't the French in the recipe supposed to be a translation itself? So 'gentleman's relish' could be a misinterpretation of a mistranslation of goodness knows what.
Without talking to the author, I don't think there's any way to know. So you simply need something that seems to fit the tone of the book. I doubt 'testicle' or 'semen' would fit, but then I haven't read the book.
Note from asker:
| Thanks for your help; I have not arrived to any conclusive answer. I will have to ask the author and when (if) I manage to contact her and get an answer, I will let you know. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Ben Gaia
: You have the right sense. Gentleman's relish in English gives the right double entendre. Rapace means rapaciousness, ie an inexhaustible appetite.
1 hr
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Thanks!
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| neutral |
Richard Benham
: Hmmm.... I think this is a bit far-fetched as well. There is no reason "homme" means "man" as opposed to "woman", of course. The phrase "d'homme" could just be "human". Who knows!?
3 hrs
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I think in this context, when you're working with the author's suggestion that it could be misinterpreted as "gentleman's relish" you need to remain somewhat linked to this misinterpretation.
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1 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
1 hr
let's back it up
can you please write the exact sentence wihtin the context? I would like to verify a hunch before I state an opinion?
Thanks,
peekay
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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-05-27 07:43:59 GMT)
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Sorry, must have missed your "exact source phrase" while going through the first few pages of hits on google about Margaret Atwood and her new novel; I must look harder... I guess it would help if the actual asker responded.
Thanks,
peekay
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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-05-27 07:43:59 GMT)
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Sorry, must have missed your "exact source phrase" while going through the first few pages of hits on google about Margaret Atwood and her new novel; I must look harder... I guess it would help if the actual asker responded.
Note from asker:
| "It looked a bit pale, so I put in a teaspoonful of "Gentleman's Relish" (the translation said "rapace d'homme" which is probably the French version." This is all there is. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Anne Goff
: Fair enough, on my google search it's hit #3 - Jigs & Reels
6 mins
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I was refering to the actual phrase in the source document language; my hunch is very particular and has nothing to do with whatever can be found in google and whatever else...
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40 mins
see stabs in the dark below
rapace in French also means miserly - making me think of bourse, French for purse but also used to mean testicle.
so could this mean a man's testicle?
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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-05-27 09:53:37 GMT)
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unless, of course, it is likening a penis to the beak of a bird of prey...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-05-27 09:54:47 GMT)
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not all MILs are witches
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Note added at 5 hrs (2007-05-27 11:11:55 GMT)
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bringing the word 'pecker' to mind
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Note added at 5 hrs (2007-05-27 11:13:57 GMT)
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could you not translate it as 'relish of gentleman' which she could then interpret as gentlemen's relish and the reader could interpret as they wish when the slithery thing comes after her?
so could this mean a man's testicle?
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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-05-27 09:53:37 GMT)
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unless, of course, it is likening a penis to the beak of a bird of prey...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-05-27 09:54:47 GMT)
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not all MILs are witches
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Note added at 5 hrs (2007-05-27 11:11:55 GMT)
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bringing the word 'pecker' to mind
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Note added at 5 hrs (2007-05-27 11:13:57 GMT)
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could you not translate it as 'relish of gentleman' which she could then interpret as gentlemen's relish and the reader could interpret as they wish when the slithery thing comes after her?
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Richard Benham
: These seem remarkably far-fetched suggestions...unless you know something I don't. (I'm sure you do, but I meant something relevant to this quesiton....)
4 hrs
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yes, they are far-fetched. sometimes it takes a little far-fetchedness to get a translation right, which is how I interpret one of the great uses of this site
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-1
9 hrs
Jean-Claude Gouin
Canada
Canada
Native in French
Canada
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Native in: French
Works in: French to English, English to French, French, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
evil man
Une rapace d'homme = an evil man
1. To my mind, it is in no way offensive;
2. Since you mention "weird" and "magic", the cookbook in
question is "fiction" and could necessitate, as an ingredient,
"an evil man".
3. I don't think that is has anything to do with
"Gentleman's Relish".
1. To my mind, it is in no way offensive;
2. Since you mention "weird" and "magic", the cookbook in
question is "fiction" and could necessitate, as an ingredient,
"an evil man".
3. I don't think that is has anything to do with
"Gentleman's Relish".
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Richard Benham
: Well, "un rapace d'homme" could just be an evil (in some sense; better: rapacious), but "une rapace d'homme" doesn't make a lot of sense at all.
16 mins
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It makes sense to me.
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| disagree |
Melzie
: how are you going to add him to the dish?
16 mins
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Like I said, it's 'weird', 'magic' and 'fiction' ...
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12 hrs
Comment
If I understand you correctly, you are translating into an unknown (by us) language a book written in English in which features a multi-language cookbook. One of the recipes in that cookbook is in French.
So why translate the French? If the French was suitable for English-speaking readers (not all of whom by any means speak French, even in Canada) why should it not be suitable in your third-language version?
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Note added at 17 hrs (2007-05-27 23:31:54 GMT)
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Some sort of burdock, maybe?
"Rapace" appears to be one of many names for a plant otherwise called "bardane", one of the English names of which is "burdock". Just as we in English talk about "horse chestnuts" and "horse radish", I wonder if in some region a particular type of "rapace" is referred to as "rapace d'homme" to distinguish it from a type preferred by some animal ????? Especially possible, maybe, if one considers the "plaque-madame" alternative below...
Other Names: petite bardane, Burdock, Burs, Clotbur, Lesser burdock, Wild burdock, Wild rhubarb, bardane mineure, rapace, rhubarbe sauvage, toques ...
www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/ontweeds/common_bu...
sang-de-dragon employé contre la pneumonie, le croup, la scarlatine, le rhumatisme, la jaunisse, l'aménorrhée; la salsepareille comme dépuratif; la verge d'or comme carminatif employé contre la constipation, le rhume et les affections pulmonaires; rapace bardane comme apéritif, diurétique contre les scrofules, la néphrite et le rhumatisme;
http://www.assnat.qc.ca/Debats-reconstitues/rd17l2se/index/s...
Bardane commune (“plaque-madame”)
http://users.skynet.be/cr.ourthe/Ourthe famennoise.pdf
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Note added at 18 hrs (2007-05-27 23:36:56 GMT)
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More on "bardane / plaque-madame" at:
ucwalone.ibelgique.com/wpg/wpg15.pdf
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Note added at 19 hrs (2007-05-28 00:41:51 GMT)
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On further consideration, I think it unlikely that this expression has a genuine/serious meaning. Either it is a dreadful misprint, or the author spoke no French and invented something and/or deliberately invented a notion that does not exist solely in order that the protagonist would not understand and use the "wrong" ingredient.
Since it appears to be a cookbook, albeit magical, but NOT a book of magic spells and potions (correct me if I'm wrong), I see no reason to believe this ingredient would be something peculiar pertaining to male (or otherwise) genitalia. Burdock is used as a remedy for assorted ailments, but not as a foodstuff. So all I see is a nonsense word that you can translate pretty literally. Manhawk, falconman, maneagle, ospreyman, etc.
So why translate the French? If the French was suitable for English-speaking readers (not all of whom by any means speak French, even in Canada) why should it not be suitable in your third-language version?
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Note added at 17 hrs (2007-05-27 23:31:54 GMT)
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Some sort of burdock, maybe?
"Rapace" appears to be one of many names for a plant otherwise called "bardane", one of the English names of which is "burdock". Just as we in English talk about "horse chestnuts" and "horse radish", I wonder if in some region a particular type of "rapace" is referred to as "rapace d'homme" to distinguish it from a type preferred by some animal ????? Especially possible, maybe, if one considers the "plaque-madame" alternative below...
Other Names: petite bardane, Burdock, Burs, Clotbur, Lesser burdock, Wild burdock, Wild rhubarb, bardane mineure, rapace, rhubarbe sauvage, toques ...
www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/ontweeds/common_bu...
sang-de-dragon employé contre la pneumonie, le croup, la scarlatine, le rhumatisme, la jaunisse, l'aménorrhée; la salsepareille comme dépuratif; la verge d'or comme carminatif employé contre la constipation, le rhume et les affections pulmonaires; rapace bardane comme apéritif, diurétique contre les scrofules, la néphrite et le rhumatisme;
http://www.assnat.qc.ca/Debats-reconstitues/rd17l2se/index/s...
Bardane commune (“plaque-madame”)
http://users.skynet.be/cr.ourthe/Ourthe famennoise.pdf
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Note added at 18 hrs (2007-05-27 23:36:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
More on "bardane / plaque-madame" at:
ucwalone.ibelgique.com/wpg/wpg15.pdf
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Note added at 19 hrs (2007-05-28 00:41:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
On further consideration, I think it unlikely that this expression has a genuine/serious meaning. Either it is a dreadful misprint, or the author spoke no French and invented something and/or deliberately invented a notion that does not exist solely in order that the protagonist would not understand and use the "wrong" ingredient.
Since it appears to be a cookbook, albeit magical, but NOT a book of magic spells and potions (correct me if I'm wrong), I see no reason to believe this ingredient would be something peculiar pertaining to male (or otherwise) genitalia. Burdock is used as a remedy for assorted ailments, but not as a foodstuff. So all I see is a nonsense word that you can translate pretty literally. Manhawk, falconman, maneagle, ospreyman, etc.
Note from asker:
| Yes, your guess is right. I am translating from English into Russian, and the cookbook is multilanguaged. And I am expected to provide footnote translations for all foreign (non-English) words. This is an established norm for Russian literature, translated or otherwise, if there are foreign words in the text, a translation should be provided. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Anne Goff
: I was wondering this myself and I did not know about this norm in Russian literature. It complicates things in this case since the original term is clearly supposed to be something the reader will not understand.
4 hrs
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Discussion