Jun 5, 2009 12:05
14 yrs ago
French term

roubines noires

French to English Science Geology
Marnes Noires :
En couvrant environ 200000 hectares dans les Alpes du sud, ces marnes représentent un élément fort du paysage. Elles forment de grands versants ravinés (roubines noires) que parfois des plantations d’arbres tentent de stabiliser. C’est grâce à elles que les vallées sont ouvertes.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 Roubines Nègres
4 +3 black bad-lands
4 black gullies/rills

Discussion

Bourth (X) Jun 8, 2009:
Original text The original Elles forment de grands versants ravinés (roubines noires) suggests that roubines noires is only added for a little local flavour which can be either dispensed with in English or left in French (see my original post). To speak of "ravined slopes" and "gulleys" in the same breath would be ridiculous, and "badlands", as "local flavour" is contexto-geographically incorrect.
Bourth (X) Jun 8, 2009:
Specific or non-specific OK, I take your point. If they are talking about "roubines (which happen to be) noires" generally, wherever they might be, then OKK for "gulleys". If they are talking about a specific area which is exemplary of the phenomenon described, i.e. "les Roubines Noires" (which should probably be "les Roubines Nègres") then it's another solution.
Francis Marche Jun 8, 2009:
Badlands The text posted by Asker describes "marnes noires" which include as a landscape feature called "roubines noires" (i.e. series of individual gullies). Now, your argument that the "plural roubines as a whole is discussed" is stretching hard on the fact that what is discussed as a whole here is indeed "marnes noires" and yes, "marnes noires" is a "landform" as you have put it, and yes, "badlands" could be a suitable translation for "marnes noires". But roubines in plural remains what it is in English : gullies.
Bourth (X) Jun 8, 2009:
Roubines in the plural OK, so a roubine can be a gulley or watercourse, and this is indeed the def. in Brunet's Les Mots de la Géographie : "roubine Occitan: ravine; s'étend aux canaux des marais".
Larousse Lexis, on the other hand, gives : "ROUBINE ...(mot prov.) Dialect. Dans le Midi, ENSEMBLE DE RAVINEMENTS [mes majuscules] dans les roches tendres (syn. BAD LANDS)"

Interestingly, le Dictionnaire des Sciences de la Terre by Michel & Fairbridge gives RouGines provençales as "badlands".

While a roubine can be an individual gulley or watercourse, and number of these will logically be roubines, in other contexts, where the plural roubines as a whole is discussed, not any of the invididual watercourses/gulleys, then the word corresponds to what in North America are called "badlands"; not that this translation, or indeed any translation, is appropriate here.

Someone has given a web ref. here where you can see a map that indicates "Roubines Noires" which I take to refer to an extensive landform, not a series of individual gulleys.

See map here (bottom of page) : http://aventuralpines.over-blog.com/article-6783408.html
Francis Marche Jun 8, 2009:
What is a Roubine Answerers to this question should do some research on the term "roubine": it is a watercourse or a gully. The term is mostly used in Provence. It is often a narrow canal linking briny ponds to the sea (in Camargue). I am puzzled by the reference Colin Rowe has given - a document where the term "Roubine" is apparently absent. It's a wonder how a consensus can apparently become established among answerers on dillusionnary perceptions and false assumptions. A "roubine" is not a "landform" or a form of land whether "bad" or good: only a dry or wet gully in a flatland (Camargue) or on the slopes of a watershed (Alpes de Haute Provence).
A picture is worth a thousand words: key in "roubine" in Google Images and see what a roubine is.

Proposed translations

+1
5 hrs
Selected

Roubines Nègres

Just as "roubines" is specific to France, I feel "badlands" is specific to North America.

Michel & Fairbridge propose "terrain raviné" for "badlands", so for "roubines" I would suggest "ravined landform", irrespective of what other translators might have said before. In fact, I'd leave "Roubines Noires" in French and work an explanatory "ravined landforms" into the text somehow – in fact, looking at your text again, there's not even any need to do that!

" Elles forment de grands versants ravinés (roubines noires*) que parfois des plantations d’arbres tentent de stabiliser" – I feel ""Roubines Noires*" should be capitalized, making it clear it is a proper name.

"It (the marl formation) forms expanses of ravined slopes ((known locally as) Roubines Noires*) where trees have sometimes been planted in an attempt prevent further erosion".

Apart from the "black" element, this is neither more nor less instructive to the English reader than the French is to a French reader. You could possibly work in a "of black earth" etc. after "slopes", if/as applicable.

* The formation/area near the Col de Pouriac and Salse Morene in the Parc du Mercantour, in the Alpes Maritimes, actually appears to be called "Roubines Nègres", by the way.

All the above irrespective of the fact that Larousse Lexis, in it's definition of roubine - "(mot prov.). Dialect. Dans le Midi, ensemble de ravinements dans les roches tendres" - states "(syn. BAD LANDS)".
(someone should point out to Larousse that the entry for "BAD-LANDS", a terminological import dating from 1951, is hyphenated).

See North American predominance in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badlands

I wonder what the Roubines gnole is. Here twixt Perche and Ouche, the local gnole is calvados of course.


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Note added at 5 hrs (2009-06-05 17:44:16 GMT)
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Liste - Les ROUBINES NEGRES de Salse Morene, depuis le Col de Pouriac. - Vignettes (août 2002)
www.lemercantour.com/RoubNegres.htm

Les ROUBINES NEGRES • Regard en arrière vers le col des Fourches • La cîme du Mul • Pause au Lac • Au col de Pouriac, l'Italie ...
www.skipass.com/blogs/maniac/la-tete-de-l-enchastraye.html

Le fait que dans la Haute Provence le mot roubine désigne "roche schisteuse" pose un problème, mais j'ai trouvé quelques images des ROUBINES-NEGRES qui ...
etymologie-occitane.chez-alice.fr/R.html

alpages verdoyants du Salso-Moreno supérieur dominés à gauche par les ravinements noirâtres des ROUBINES-NEGRES. Le sentier descend très ...
www.arsac.org/wihem/blog/blog/Paca/2009/03/06

Alpage entouré des ROUBINES NEGRES, du Pas de la Cavale et du col de Pouriac (Hameau du Pra). La lumière matinale souligne l'impression de liberté, ...
www.routard.com/photos/provence/10136-alpage_du_salso_moren...

Ou ces ROUBINES NEGRES, étranges saignées noires qui descendent jusque dans la prairie. Il y a ces marmottes, qui courrent de partout, alors que nos ...
aventuralpines.over-blog.com/article-6783408.html

Pas besoin de préciser pourquoi on appelle ce coin les ROUBINES NEGRES : http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5007/rpbonette229bordernm... ...
www.randonner-leger.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7285

Découverte du cirque du Salso Moreno, caractérisé par sa barre de ROUBINES NEGRES. Belle montée sur de la pelouse alpine (attention les marmottes ! ...
philippecoumont.free.fr/spip/article.php?id_article=2

55 ghits for "Roubines Nègres", 4 for "Roubines Noires" (of which 2 are on ProZ)


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Note added at 6 days (2009-06-11 16:11:38 GMT) Post-grading
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Just as long as it's not a soggy one, I accept.
Peer comment(s):

agree Rachel Fell : Quite agree about "badlands" being a N.Am. term - http://www.lemercantour.com/SalseMorene3.htm http://aventuralpines.over-blog.com/article-6783408.html http://philippecoumont.free.fr/spip/article.php?id_article=2
4 hrs
agree Sheila Hardie
1 day 18 hrs
disagree Francis Marche : Most of the pictures in reference (Salso Moreno, etc.) clearly show that roubines noires are gullies and rills
2 days 15 hrs
Indeed, roubine + roubine + roubine + les Roubines, the name of a landform, not "3 roubines".
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Such a well researched answer deserves the biscuit. Many thanks!"
+3
18 mins

black bad-lands

...

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Note added at 19 minutes (2009-06-05 12:24:32 GMT)
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s'écrit aussi badlands
Peer comment(s):

agree Mark Bossanyi
1 hr
Merci
agree Colin Rowe : "...badlands locally called the 'roubines'..." http://eost.u-strasbg.fr/omiv/Publications/Weber_2000_ISL.pd...
1 hr
merci
agree Guy Bray
2 hrs
merci
agree cjohnstone
20 hrs
merci
disagree Francis Marche : Sorry, I find your explanation unconvincing and the reference provided by Colin Rowe does not contain the term "roubine"
2 days 21 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 days 21 hrs

black gullies/rills

See my comments in the discussion box.

http://plantandsoil.unl.edu/croptechnology2005/UserFiles/Ima...



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Note added at 2 days21 hrs (2009-06-08 09:32:57 GMT)
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http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://mazonpat.blog-c...
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Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

More info:

http://www.lemercantour.com/SalseMorene3.htm

Les Terres Noires constituent des terrains mous facilement entaillés par l'érosion. Le ravinement produit cette apparence dite en dos d'éléphant, appelée localement roubines, robines ou rouvines quand elle n'est pas recouverte de végétation. Le terme « robine » désigne en fait un petit canal, il est utilisé ici à cause de cette apparence de multiples petits canaux, donc toujours au pluriel.
http://ubaye.romandie.com/post/13299/127479
Something went wrong...
2 hrs
Reference:

Badlands

Les paysages de *roubines* ou de *badlands* ont été et sont encore surtout étudiés du point de vue des processus qui y fonctionnent...

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13641975
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