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скважинная компоновка
Центрально-ермолаевская война
Nov 25, 2009 22:19
14 yrs ago
Russian term

весь народ из одних ворот

Russian to English Art/Literary Idioms / Maxims / Sayings Saying
A writer is talking about the level of cultural decline, such as not reading books any more, being approximately the same in cities and in the countryside.

I would like to find a comparable English expression. So far, all I thought of is "cut of the same cloth" and "hewed from the same stone," but it would be nice to find one which has people in it. Alternatively, a rhymed translation of the Russian expression. Not asking for much, huh?
Proposed translations (English)
3 the evil field will evil yield
4 +1 см. ниже
4 six of one, half a dozen of the other
3 A man's a man for a' that
3 (a world/nation) of cookie cutter look-alikes
3 "Little boxes all the same!"

Discussion

Maria Korolenkova Nov 27, 2009:
Thank you, Rachel. I'm glad my comment has helped you.
P.S. Poor Gogol :(
Maria Korolenkova Nov 26, 2009:
Ok. So you haven't found a saying. What a pity :( But your decision seems to be very practical.
Rachel Douglas (asker) Nov 26, 2009:
Different problem "people/steeple" sounds like perfectly good English, but it has the problem of making it sound as if it's talking about people sharing a religion. ... I ended up writing and transliteration + the literal translation, "All of our people came through one gate", and readers can make of it what they want to!
Maria Korolenkova Nov 26, 2009:
I agree with Judith. I don't know why, but the "All our people sit under one steeple", although nicely rimed, sounds somewhat German (?) to me. Some linguistic associations I can't really explain ...
Rachel Douglas (asker) Nov 26, 2009:
I agree Yes, I thought about that problem with "steeple." Maria has about convinced me that it really means "all born from the same mother." Still, I'd like to have it as a saying, and one that sounds simple, traditional, old-fashioned. The guy is making the point that people may identify problems in one segment of the Russian population or another, but they really are all problems which people have in common, because... Весь народ из одних ворот.
Judith Hehir Nov 26, 2009:
To Rachel: I think the steeple might cause some to think you are making a reference to organized religion/separation of church and state/melding religions.
Maria Korolenkova Nov 26, 2009:
All the people came through one gate Well, the sense of the expression is "people act as if they were born by the same mother" and "gate" here is an euphemism. I don't know whether the literal translation corresponds to this. May be, I don't know.
Rachel Douglas (asker) Nov 25, 2009:
Option In a fit of inspiration over supper, I thought of:

"All our people sit under one steeple" (!) - It's not an existing saying, but maybe it somewhat captures the sense. And then put a transliteration and literal translation ("All the people came through one gate," right?) in a note.
Maria Korolenkova Nov 25, 2009:
Oh, and I just have found one more: "not a pin to choose between them"
Maria Korolenkova Nov 25, 2009:
Actually this expression has some "obstetrical" connotation :)) Although "the evil field..." has more to do with "like father, like son", I agree.
Maria Korolenkova Nov 25, 2009:
birds of a feather flock together... Well, it does (you have said "equally bad" - and this is it). It depends on what your need to highlight :)
Rachel Douglas (asker) Nov 25, 2009:
Context I don't think the expression, as such, is necessarily about things being "equally bad." That dimension is added by the context, which I did mention. I'm interested in the original expression.
Libero_Lang_Lab Nov 25, 2009:
more context would, I think, be helpful
Libero_Lang_Lab Nov 25, 2009:
By the sound of it... ... the two English idioms you mention wouldn't really work in the context anyway. They don't really convey the sense that 'we're all as bad as each other'. In fact, that might be the best solution, albeit a little more prosaic than the source phrasing.

Proposed translations

57 mins
Selected

the evil field will evil yield

There is also Russian expression (more popular, I should say) "Одного поля ягоды".
Consider "of the same batch" as well.
Note from asker:
Thank, Maria. But, "из одних ворот" doesn't have any sense of "evil," does it?
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I didn't use "the evil field...", but would like to give you the points, for being the first one to explain the expression to me. So, thanks to Maria and Katya, for making clear what "gate" is intended. I had assumed it meant an ordinary city gate, maybe under the influence of Pushkin, who in his "Rejoinder to Criticism" cites a line from an old skazka: "И вышел он за врата градские, и услышал конский топ и людскую молвь". So it got into my head that talking about actual gates was common. In any event, I ended up writing: "Ves narod iz odnikh vorot” – "All the people came through the same gate." I decided it would not work to use an English saying (especially ones with highly specific cultural connotations). Here's the whole passage from the interview, for anybody who's interested: "I think that the city and the country are evenly matched. When they were filming a documentary here ..., the director did an experiment. ... He put some questions to children here: “Who was Lenin?” They answered: “A writer.” “And who was Gogol?” That question they couldn’t answer. He didn’t pre-screen the interviewees. He asked everybody. A small town in a rural district. Kids in a small district town. It has two schools, where the senior students would seem to be fairly intelligent youngsters. At first glance. I’ve given talks at these schools a few times, but maybe their apparent intelligence comes down to the fact that mostly they don’t say anything? In any case, they never have any questions. They don’t have any questions, and they don’t have any answers, either. I think that the countryside is very little different from the city now. Neither worse, nor better. I don’t even know how to explain this. It’s like the Russian saying: "Ves narod iz odnikh vorot” – "All the people came through the same gate." What ails the city, ails the village as well. In that sense, our nation has been united, in some way, around the tragedy we are now experiencing. Namely, the decline of culture in every aspect." "
49 mins

A man's a man for a' that

This might be a little too culturally marked for you, but worth mentioning, for literary interest value if nothing else.

This is the title of a very famous poem by Robert Burns (see below). And it has become embedded in the modern lexicon in Scotland (I don't think I could even claim it was widely known among British English speakers), to mean: however you dress us up, however rich or poor we may be, we're all basically the same.


s there for honesty poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave - we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a' that?
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine,
A man's a man for a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that,
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that,
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A price can mak a belted knight,
A marquise, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's aboon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that,
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
That man to man, the world o'er,
Shall brithers be for a' that.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 51 mins (2009-11-25 23:10:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Thinking about it for a few seconds more, this wouldn't work for you! But it's a nice line anyway! :-)
Note from asker:
Oh, Dan, that's a favorite of mine!! (Note the name of my household: Douglas.) By the way, did you know that "Wir sind das Volk," which the crowds in Leipzig chanted 20 years ago this fall, comes from Burns? It's lifted from an 1848 revolutionary song by Freiligrath, known as "Trotz alledem" ("Despite everything," in other words - "For a' that"), which was based on his earlier translation of "A man's a man." I think one of the most amazing film clips I ever saw was of the Windsors ("the Hanoverians", as an elderly Scots friend of mine used to say) holding their stiff upper lip while this was sung, by the Parliamentarians, at the first opening of the Scottish Parliament in a few centuries. ... But, you're right, it won't do for this context.
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3 hrs

(a world/nation) of cookie cutter look-alikes

maybe?

This doesn't have a positive connotation. It implies no individuality/individualism, but I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for.
Something went wrong...
17 hrs

six of one, half a dozen of the other

одним миром ("миро") мазаны
Something went wrong...
+1
9 hrs

см. ниже

1) all the crowd from the same out
2) whole crowd from one out
3) all the crowd came from the same out

Выберите вариант по вкусу, ну или, благодаря врожденному языковому чутью, трансформируйте в идеальный, на ваш взгляд. :-)
Здесь про то место, откуда все дети родятся. Так что все оттуда и вышли.
Если не подойдут варианты, то, надеюсь, хотя бы подтолкну в нужном направлении. Успехов!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 дн14 час (2009-11-27 13:13:01 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Думаю, тут дело в восприятии. Заглянув со стороны бейсбола, мне в оригинальном русском стал мерещиться футбол. Впрочем, вы родной всяко лучше чувствуете, который для меня является иностранным. :-)
Note from asker:
Thanks, Katya! My problem with the proposals would be that any short phrase containing "crowd" and "out" would make me think I'm at a baseball game!
Peer comment(s):
agree danya : hear, hear! i like the crowd-out thing
36 mins
Спасибо, danya!
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13 hrs

"Little boxes all the same!"

I guess it could be a good idea to just use the words from the song:

"Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There’s a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same."

To my mind it's not all about houses...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2009-11-27 13:20:04 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I think the song is in essence about the traps of conformity.
Anyway, I like your questions, grading comments and explanations. Thanks, Rachel!
Note from asker:
The problem is that it's exactly about houses! The "Little Boxes" song (1962) is about post-war suburbia in the United States. Any reader of my (baby-boomer) generation would immediately have the tune start running through their head, which would be totally incongruous in a discussion about the level of culture in Russian rural areas in 2008.
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