Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
Mesdames
English translation:
Dear Miss x and Miss y (or Mrs.)
French term
Mesdames
3 +11 | Dear Miss x and Miss y (or Mrs.) | Jennifer White |
4 +7 | Dear Ms X and Dear Ms Y | Conor McAuley |
5 +2 | Ladies | Constantinos Faridis (X) |
5 +1 | Dear Ladies | Chris Hall |
5 +1 | Ladies/ dear Ladies | Maggie687 |
5 +1 | Mesdames | liz askew |
4 +1 | Ladies | gail desautels |
May 17, 2010 15:30: writeaway changed "Field" from "Other" to "Law/Patents" , "Field (specific)" from "Law: Contract(s)" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters"
May 17, 2010 15:34: writeaway changed "Field" from "Law/Patents" to "Bus/Financial"
May 17, 2010 15:41: Rob Grayson changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
May 18, 2010 16:03: Jennifer White Created KOG entry
Non-PRO (3): writeaway, Emanuela Galdelli, Rob Grayson
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Proposed translations
Dear Miss x and Miss y (or Mrs.)
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Note added at 10 mins (2010-05-17 14:42:17 GMT)
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Frankly, I think "Dear Ladies" sounds wrong - even a bit patronising.
I agree with your opinion of "Dear Ladies" - this is a professional situation. Your solution is my fall-back position if nobody comes up with a better solution. |
agree |
Pablo Strauss
: In NA Ms., not Miss or Mrs. - absolutely agree to use their names unless you do not know them
15 mins
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Thanks. Would use Ms. only if I didn't know whether Mrs. or Miss!
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|
agree |
cmwilliams (X)
: yes, definitely
17 mins
|
Thanks
|
|
agree |
Enza Longo
23 mins
|
Thanks
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|
agree |
imatahan
23 mins
|
Thanks
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|
agree |
Cetacea
38 mins
|
Thanks
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|
neutral |
Jenn Mercer
: Definitely use Ms instead of Mrs or Miss in a professional situation.
59 mins
|
Thanks. Here in the UK we tend to use Ms. rather less I think.
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agree |
writeaway
: standard stuff. not even legalese. Any sort of business letter...... English and French often go their separate ways after all
59 mins
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True. Thanks
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agree |
Rob Grayson
: Absolutely – and DEFINITELY not "Dear Ladies"!
1 hr
|
Thanks
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agree |
Jean-Claude Gouin
1 hr
|
Thanks
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agree |
Evans (X)
: would use Ms too, unless you know their marital status (many women prefer it in any case)
1 hr
|
Thanks
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neutral |
Conor McAuley
: Agree with Jenn and Gilla
1 hr
|
Thanks. I'm old-fashioned and prefer to avoid Ms. if possible!!
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agree |
Sarah Bessioud
: This is not a 'fall-back' solution - it is the correct way of beginning a letter!
1 hr
|
Thanks
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agree |
Andreas THEODOROU
: I'd definitely go with Ms
2 hrs
|
Thanks. Personally, I object to being called Ms! (and very few people do so).
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agree |
Sheila Wilson
: With Jeux-de-mots - Ms + name is the CORRECT way, whatever the French use. I don't like Ms either but that's not the point
3 hrs
|
Thanks Sheila. Actually I think J de M was agreeing with me! I suppose this argument could go on infinitum, but my CORRECT title is Mrs. Jennifer White and all my mail is addressed in this way. Have a good evening.
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disagree |
liz askew
: There are no surnames involves in "Mesdames", so Dear Miss/Misses would sound silly, and does not reflect the orginal French./It sound silly because "Dear Mrs." is never used. Only Dear Mrs. Askew/Dear Madam (if you don't know the surname).
1 day 4 hrs
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I don't understand this. It's a salutation for a letter. Why does Dear mrs. X sound silly? If the name is known, then it should be used, surely./But this is exactly what I have said! ie Dear Mrs. X!
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Dear Ladies
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Note added at 4 mins (2010-05-17 14:35:47 GMT)
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If the letter was being written to two men, it would be:
Dear sirs
Unfortunately, there are no Gentlemen involved, it is two specific ladies in a business context. "Dear Ladies" or even just "Ladies" doesn't sound right either. |
neutral |
Andreas THEODOROU
: This is not a well-established opener (or even established IMO) and in professional letters, conservatism not creativity is the order of the day
21 hrs
|
agree |
liz askew
: It is a well-established opener.
1 day 4 hrs
|
Many thanks Liz - I do not understand what the problem is here.
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Ladies
1. Madame fait au pluriel mesdames : bonjour, mesdames ! Aujourd'hui, nous avons le plaisir d'accueillir parmi nous mesdames Leduc et Albert.
On écrit en abrégé : Mme, Mmes (ou Mme, Mmes) : transmettez notre meilleur souvenir à votre charmante voisine, Mme Duval ; le président a vivement regretté l'absence de Mmes Fontaine et Gagnon, excusées.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iM7OA_f...
agree |
geetahu
8 hrs
|
merci
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neutral |
Andreas THEODOROU
: This is not a well-established opener (or even established IMO) and in professional letters, conservatism not creativity is the order of the day
21 hrs
|
agree |
liz askew
: It is a well-established opener.
1 day 4 hrs
|
thnk you
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Mesdames
For a business letter.
The formality of the French needs to be reflected in the English translation.
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Note added at 1 day5 hrs (2010-05-18 19:47:22 GMT) Post-grading
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms.
[edit] British
The Times (UK) states in its style guide that: "Ms is nowadays fully acceptable when a woman wants to be called thus, or when it is not known for certain if she is Mrs or Miss"[17]. The Guardian, which restricts its use of honorific titles to leading articles, states in its style guide: "use Ms for women... unless they have expressed a preference for Miss or Mrs".[18]
Most women in the UK style themselves either "Miss" or "Mrs"[citation needed]. However, in some circles the appellation Ms is now standard, for instance in business or where one may not know or find relevant the marital status of the woman so addressed. Ms can also be used if the woman in question is divorced and reverts to her maiden name. Additionally, she may have changed her name by deed poll and use Ms because it is neither a married nor a maiden name.
[edit] Plurals
Either Mss. or Mses. may be used as the modern English plural of Ms. Alternatively, if using the traditional French plurals ("Messieurs" for Mr., and "Mesdemoiselles" for Miss) one may use "Mesdames" (abbreviation "Mmes."), which is also the plural for "Mrs."
In editorial work Mss. can be confusing, however, since it is also the abbreviation for "manuscripts (by)".
Ladies
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Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2010-05-18 20:32:36 GMT) Post-grading
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Based on all the discussion, I did a google search, and there are plural forms for Ms. and Mrs. Mrs. in plural is Mesdames in English, though I will admit I have never received a letter in which I was addressed this way..... A google search also says this is a slightly controversial issue..... and you likely won't find agreement...
If there was, I wouldn't be here :) I do have their names so I can start with "Dear Ms. X and Ms. Y" if nobody has a better suggestion. |
neutral |
Andreas THEODOROU
: This is not a well-established opener (or even established IMO) and in professional letters, conservatism not creativity is the order of the day
21 hrs
|
agree |
liz askew
: It is a well-established opener.
1 day 4 hrs
|
Dear Ms X and Dear Ms Y
I'm reacting, really, to Jennifer's answer.
Maybe I'm been terribly PC, but "Dear Miss" sounds all wrong. In a business/non-personal context, anyway.
Just my feeling.
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Note added at 2 days4 hrs (2010-05-19 19:18:38 GMT) Post-grading
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Terry: but the whole point is that there's a difference between "Miss" and "Ms" -- Ms is a neutral form for women who may be married or unmarried, Miss is for unmarried women.
Thanks for your suggestion. This is what I actually used but before you submitted it and based on the other answer. As you can't split the points I had to give them to *somebody* and Mrs. White got there first. |
Yes, I know that. In fact I used Ms. but I did so before you answered. The points are supposed to go to the "most useful" answer and it was the Miss answer that lead me to the solution I used which fits my definition of "most useful" even though your answer was "most correct". If I could have split the points, I would have. Instead, you just get my thanks which are 99% as useful as Kudoz points :) |
agree |
Chris Hall
23 mins
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Thanks Chris!
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neutral |
Jennifer White
: Sorry, but "Dear Miss X" sounds fine to me!
29 mins
|
Thanks anyway
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agree |
Andreas THEODOROU
31 mins
|
Thanks Andreas!
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agree |
Jean-Louis S.
53 mins
|
Thanks jlsjr!
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neutral |
writeaway
: depends. it's not always appreciated.
58 mins
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Fair enough, I thought Ms was highly neutral
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agree |
Sheila Wilson
: My agree above was to Ms; I didn't mean to agree to Miss; I think translators need to be PC at work; I wouldn't repeat the "dear" personally.
1 hr
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Thanks a lot Sheila!
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agree |
Claire Nolan
2 hrs
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Thanks Clanola!
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agree |
Irene McClure
: No problem Conor. I worked in the equality field in the UK for many years and am still astounded that people presume to know the marital status of women they have never met! It's not PC to use Ms, simply C (correct!). Rant over.
3 hrs
|
Thanks savtrad!
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agree |
Cecile Vidic (X)
4 hrs
|
Thanks Cecile!
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neutral |
liz askew
: no need for translators to be PC unless the text itself is PC, otherwise we are not being faithful to the text or the person who has written it./Who are we to translate everything in a strict PC way? How presumptuous.
1 day 5 hrs
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Hmmm...we don't have the full context. Agree about being faithful. BUt are not the majority of people PC these days (in English-speaking societies, I mean, definitely not in France...)?
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Discussion
NB from your ref:
"If you are addressing to an organization and not an individual, then use the following:
Ladies and Gentlemen:"
............but it was just a question of 2 ladies, whose names were known...........really can't see the problem.
Plurals
Either Mss. or Mses. may be used as the modern English plural of Ms. Alternatively, if using the traditional French plurals ("Messieurs" for Mr., and "Mesdemoiselles" for Miss) one may use "Mesdames" (abbreviation "Mmes."), which is also the plural for "Mrs."
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms.
and I have never received a letter saying Dear Miss, Dear Mrs, or Dear Ms. for that matter. This would always be followed by the surname.
Dear Sir/Madam, yes.
Take a look at:http://blog.instructionalsolutions.com/2009/02/12/business-l...
You will need to scroll down to the section on addressing 2 women.
Personallly regardless of the actual marital status and in the absence of any other information, I would use Ms.
With other information, I can imagine how some might tend towards Mrs or Miss.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mesdames
So, there is nothing wrong with saying "Dear Ladies". Instead of saying "Dear Gentlemen", you would say "Dear Sirs". That is my contribution finished here.