Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

Mesdames

English translation:

Dear Miss x and Miss y (or Mrs.)

Added to glossary by Jennifer White
May 17, 2010 14:31
14 yrs ago
12 viewers *
French term

Mesdames

Non-PRO French to English Bus/Financial General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters Letter formalities
The letter is being written to two women and the French writer quite correctly starts off with "Mesdames" but what is the English equivalent? "Dear Madams" sounds wrong to me (unless adressing a hookers' convention).
Change log

May 17, 2010 15:30: writeaway changed "Field" from "Other" to "Law/Patents" , "Field (specific)" from "Law: Contract(s)" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters"

May 17, 2010 15:34: writeaway changed "Field" from "Law/Patents" to "Bus/Financial"

May 17, 2010 15:41: Rob Grayson changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

May 18, 2010 16:03: Jennifer White Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): writeaway, Emanuela Galdelli, Rob Grayson

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Discussion

Constantinos Faridis (X) May 19, 2010:
absolutely WRONG! What Miss!!! miss = Mademoiselle
Jennifer White May 18, 2010:
Hasn't this got way out of hand?
NB from your ref:
"If you are addressing to an organization and not an individual, then use the following:

Ladies and Gentlemen:"


............but it was just a question of 2 ladies, whose names were known...........really can't see the problem.
liz askew May 18, 2010:
specifically:
Plurals

Either Mss. or Mses. may be used as the modern English plural of Ms. Alternatively, if using the traditional French plurals ("Messieurs" for Mr., and "Mesdemoiselles" for Miss) one may use "Mesdames" (abbreviation "Mmes."), which is also the plural for "Mrs."
liz askew May 18, 2010:
You need to look here too Jennifer. Also, it doesn't matter if it is a same sex couple, it is still relevant. Two women = Mesdames.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms.
Chris Hall May 18, 2010:
It is straightforward... as far as I am concerned. It seems that people seem to like over-complicating matters when there is absolutely no need to do so.
Jennifer White May 18, 2010:
Your ref. is for same sex couples and wouldn't work here. Interesting though. I had thought that this was so straightforward too......... :)
liz askew May 18, 2010:
Oh, and I forgot to say, "Mses." is the correct plural of "Ms". See the last reference again, it is very useful.
Jennifer White May 18, 2010:
Liz Yes, exactly, but the asker did know the surnames. I never suggested that Dear Miss should be used alone. I thought that was clear.
liz askew May 18, 2010:
Jennifer
and I have never received a letter saying Dear Miss, Dear Mrs, or Dear Ms. for that matter. This would always be followed by the surname.

Dear Sir/Madam, yes.
Jennifer White May 18, 2010:
Liz I've lived here even longer, but have yet to receive a letter with "lady" or "ladies" as a salutation. After-dinner speaking is another matter.........
liz askew May 18, 2010:
Ladies and "Madam" are often used in the UK. I have lived here for 55 years!!
Travelin Ann May 18, 2010:
@Terry I agree with you that the use of "Mesdames" in English is not very common, especially today. I have seen it in my long business career, but not recently.

Take a look at:http://blog.instructionalsolutions.com/2009/02/12/business-l...
You will need to scroll down to the section on addressing 2 women.
Terry Richards (asker) May 18, 2010:
Not in English it isn't
Terry Richards (asker) May 18, 2010:
PRO / Non PRO I strongly disagree with this question being "downgraded" to non-pro. The amount of discussion generated and the number of answers proposed clearly show that the answer is non-obvious and, in fact, there may actually be no exact translation available at all. The criteria for non-pro are clearly NOT met.
Constantinos Faridis (X) May 18, 2010:
Mai quel français vous enseignent?? Nous ils ont enseigné á l'école que le pluriel du mot madam est medames parceque ma + dame > MES + DAMES. iL 'AGIT DES PRONOMS POSSESIVES MA TA SA MES TES SES
Constantinos Faridis (X) May 18, 2010:
is very clear> Mesdames et Monsieurs = Ladies and Gentlemen. ONly this.
Terry Richards (asker) May 18, 2010:
Ann. Mesdames may be acceptable but it is far from common. I have spent over 30 years in business and have never encountered it.
Terry Richards (asker) May 18, 2010:
Constantinos. This is French to English, therefore the rules of French grammer are simply not relevant.
Constantinos Faridis (X) May 18, 2010:
singulier: Madame - Pluriel: Mesdames. Il n' y a pas place pour discussions!! Il s'agit de simple connaissance de la grammaire française. (p. ex. Mesdames et Monsieurs bonsoir! etc....) Ladies and gentlemen good eveningetc
Andreas THEODOROU May 18, 2010:
Still very iffy about Ladies :-) My "neutrals" are a reaction to the high confidence levels of its propopents - I don't want the asker to think that these are standard openings.

Personallly regardless of the actual marital status and in the absence of any other information, I would use Ms.

With other information, I can imagine how some might tend towards Mrs or Miss.
Travelin Ann May 17, 2010:
In a letter in English, mesdames is often used as the plural, just as "Messrs." is used for the plural of Mr.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mesdames
Jennifer White May 17, 2010:
Chris This a letter, not a room full of people.
Chris Hall May 17, 2010:
Dear Ladies... You say "Dear Ladies and Gentlemen" when addressing a room full of people, both male and female.

So, there is nothing wrong with saying "Dear Ladies". Instead of saying "Dear Gentlemen", you would say "Dear Sirs". That is my contribution finished here.

Proposed translations

+11
2 mins
Selected

Dear Miss x and Miss y (or Mrs.)

Can't think of any other way to say it really!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 mins (2010-05-17 14:42:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Frankly, I think "Dear Ladies" sounds wrong - even a bit patronising.
Note from asker:
I agree with your opinion of "Dear Ladies" - this is a professional situation. Your solution is my fall-back position if nobody comes up with a better solution.
Peer comment(s):

agree Pablo Strauss : In NA Ms., not Miss or Mrs. - absolutely agree to use their names unless you do not know them
15 mins
Thanks. Would use Ms. only if I didn't know whether Mrs. or Miss!
agree cmwilliams (X) : yes, definitely
17 mins
Thanks
agree Enza Longo
23 mins
Thanks
agree imatahan
23 mins
Thanks
agree Cetacea
38 mins
Thanks
neutral Jenn Mercer : Definitely use Ms instead of Mrs or Miss in a professional situation.
59 mins
Thanks. Here in the UK we tend to use Ms. rather less I think.
agree writeaway : standard stuff. not even legalese. Any sort of business letter...... English and French often go their separate ways after all
59 mins
True. Thanks
agree Rob Grayson : Absolutely – and DEFINITELY not "Dear Ladies"!
1 hr
Thanks
agree Jean-Claude Gouin
1 hr
Thanks
agree Evans (X) : would use Ms too, unless you know their marital status (many women prefer it in any case)
1 hr
Thanks
neutral Conor McAuley : Agree with Jenn and Gilla
1 hr
Thanks. I'm old-fashioned and prefer to avoid Ms. if possible!!
agree Sarah Bessioud : This is not a 'fall-back' solution - it is the correct way of beginning a letter!
1 hr
Thanks
agree Andreas THEODOROU : I'd definitely go with Ms
2 hrs
Thanks. Personally, I object to being called Ms! (and very few people do so).
agree Sheila Wilson : With Jeux-de-mots - Ms + name is the CORRECT way, whatever the French use. I don't like Ms either but that's not the point
3 hrs
Thanks Sheila. Actually I think J de M was agreeing with me! I suppose this argument could go on infinitum, but my CORRECT title is Mrs. Jennifer White and all my mail is addressed in this way. Have a good evening.
disagree liz askew : There are no surnames involves in "Mesdames", so Dear Miss/Misses would sound silly, and does not reflect the orginal French./It sound silly because "Dear Mrs." is never used. Only Dear Mrs. Askew/Dear Madam (if you don't know the surname).
1 day 4 hrs
I don't understand this. It's a salutation for a letter. Why does Dear mrs. X sound silly? If the name is known, then it should be used, surely./But this is exactly what I have said! ie Dear Mrs. X!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you Mrs. White :) I actually used Ms. but your answer was the one that put me on track."
+1
2 mins

Dear Ladies

Mesdames et Messieurs = Ladies and Gentlemen

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 mins (2010-05-17 14:35:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If the letter was being written to two men, it would be:

Dear sirs
Note from asker:
Unfortunately, there are no Gentlemen involved, it is two specific ladies in a business context. "Dear Ladies" or even just "Ladies" doesn't sound right either.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Andreas THEODOROU : This is not a well-established opener (or even established IMO) and in professional letters, conservatism not creativity is the order of the day
21 hrs
agree liz askew : It is a well-established opener.
1 day 4 hrs
Many thanks Liz - I do not understand what the problem is here.
Something went wrong...
+2
6 mins

Ladies

Orthographe

1. Madame fait au pluriel mesdames : bonjour, mesdames ! Aujourd'hui, nous avons le plaisir d'accueillir parmi nous mesdames Leduc et Albert.

On écrit en abrégé : Mme, Mmes (ou Mme, Mmes) : transmettez notre meilleur souvenir à votre charmante voisine, Mme Duval ; le président a vivement regretté l'absence de Mmes Fontaine et Gagnon, excusées.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iM7OA_f...
Peer comment(s):

agree geetahu
8 hrs
merci
neutral Andreas THEODOROU : This is not a well-established opener (or even established IMO) and in professional letters, conservatism not creativity is the order of the day
21 hrs
agree liz askew : It is a well-established opener.
1 day 4 hrs
thnk you
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs

Ladies/ dear Ladies

I'm for "Ladies"
Peer comment(s):

agree liz askew
1 day 1 hr
Something went wrong...
+1
1 day 5 hrs

Mesdames

based on the reference provided in the discussion box.

For a business letter.

The formality of the French needs to be reflected in the English translation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day5 hrs (2010-05-18 19:47:22 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms.


[edit] British

The Times (UK) states in its style guide that: "Ms is nowadays fully acceptable when a woman wants to be called thus, or when it is not known for certain if she is Mrs or Miss"[17]. The Guardian, which restricts its use of honorific titles to leading articles, states in its style guide: "use Ms for women... unless they have expressed a preference for Miss or Mrs".[18]

Most women in the UK style themselves either "Miss" or "Mrs"[citation needed]. However, in some circles the appellation Ms is now standard, for instance in business or where one may not know or find relevant the marital status of the woman so addressed. Ms can also be used if the woman in question is divorced and reverts to her maiden name. Additionally, she may have changed her name by deed poll and use Ms because it is neither a married nor a maiden name.
[edit] Plurals

Either Mss. or Mses. may be used as the modern English plural of Ms. Alternatively, if using the traditional French plurals ("Messieurs" for Mr., and "Mesdemoiselles" for Miss) one may use "Mesdames" (abbreviation "Mmes."), which is also the plural for "Mrs."

In editorial work Mss. can be confusing, however, since it is also the abbreviation for "manuscripts (by)".
Peer comment(s):

agree Mpoma : convinced
2563 days
Something went wrong...
+1
5 mins

Ladies

Normally, Mesdames and Messieurs often translates as Ladies and Gentlemen. You may have to be creative, as Ladies or Dear Ladies sounds like a slightly awkward way to start a letter, although it would not be incorrect. Is there anything in your source which allow you to use another salutation???

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2010-05-18 20:32:36 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Based on all the discussion, I did a google search, and there are plural forms for Ms. and Mrs. Mrs. in plural is Mesdames in English, though I will admit I have never received a letter in which I was addressed this way..... A google search also says this is a slightly controversial issue..... and you likely won't find agreement...
Note from asker:
If there was, I wouldn't be here :) I do have their names so I can start with "Dear Ms. X and Ms. Y" if nobody has a better suggestion.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Andreas THEODOROU : This is not a well-established opener (or even established IMO) and in professional letters, conservatism not creativity is the order of the day
21 hrs
agree liz askew : It is a well-established opener.
1 day 4 hrs
Something went wrong...
+7
1 hr

Dear Ms X and Dear Ms Y

(Ms X has no connection with the hookers' conference mentioned! ;-) )

I'm reacting, really, to Jennifer's answer.

Maybe I'm been terribly PC, but "Dear Miss" sounds all wrong. In a business/non-personal context, anyway.

Just my feeling.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days4 hrs (2010-05-19 19:18:38 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Terry: but the whole point is that there's a difference between "Miss" and "Ms" -- Ms is a neutral form for women who may be married or unmarried, Miss is for unmarried women.
Note from asker:
Thanks for your suggestion. This is what I actually used but before you submitted it and based on the other answer. As you can't split the points I had to give them to *somebody* and Mrs. White got there first.
Yes, I know that. In fact I used Ms. but I did so before you answered. The points are supposed to go to the "most useful" answer and it was the Miss answer that lead me to the solution I used which fits my definition of "most useful" even though your answer was "most correct". If I could have split the points, I would have. Instead, you just get my thanks which are 99% as useful as Kudoz points :)
Peer comment(s):

agree Chris Hall
23 mins
Thanks Chris!
neutral Jennifer White : Sorry, but "Dear Miss X" sounds fine to me!
29 mins
Thanks anyway
agree Andreas THEODOROU
31 mins
Thanks Andreas!
agree Jean-Louis S.
53 mins
Thanks jlsjr!
neutral writeaway : depends. it's not always appreciated.
58 mins
Fair enough, I thought Ms was highly neutral
agree Sheila Wilson : My agree above was to Ms; I didn't mean to agree to Miss; I think translators need to be PC at work; I wouldn't repeat the "dear" personally.
1 hr
Thanks a lot Sheila!
agree Claire Nolan
2 hrs
Thanks Clanola!
agree Irene McClure : No problem Conor. I worked in the equality field in the UK for many years and am still astounded that people presume to know the marital status of women they have never met! It's not PC to use Ms, simply C (correct!). Rant over.
3 hrs
Thanks savtrad!
agree Cecile Vidic (X)
4 hrs
Thanks Cecile!
neutral liz askew : no need for translators to be PC unless the text itself is PC, otherwise we are not being faithful to the text or the person who has written it./Who are we to translate everything in a strict PC way? How presumptuous.
1 day 5 hrs
Hmmm...we don't have the full context. Agree about being faithful. BUt are not the majority of people PC these days (in English-speaking societies, I mean, definitely not in France...)?
Something went wrong...
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