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une décision de justice rejetant l'exécution pour manque de preuve
régime réel normal
Mar 15, 2013 14:14
11 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

cadenasser

French to English Art/Literary History
This comes from a history book. Here's the context:

"Il est paradoxal de parler de textes à propos d’une civilisation qui a refusé l’écrit et qui n’a eu de systèmes d'écriture qu’empruntés aux civilisations voisines. Les Celtes ont connu seulement la transmission orale des traditions littéraires, religieuses, juridiques et scientifiques. Au temps de Jules César, les druides avaient fini de ****cadenasser**** ce système, condamnant à un naufrage total la culture intellectuelle du monde celtique, quand le conquérant romain a détruit l’institution des druides, dépositaires de ce savoir.''

I can't work out what cadenasser means here exactly. The druids managed to perfect the system? What system? The 'borrowed' writing system? The oral tradition system? Or is it more literal, 'locked away' - as in they had the ''system'' concealed, under wraps? I've been looking at this for so long I can't think. Someobody help!
Proposed translations (English)
3 make this system their own
3 +5 locked down / totally appropriated
4 to finish locking down/ to complete the lockdown
4 shackling
2 +1 were the masters
3 had got it all sewn up
3 had perfected locking up the system

Discussion

Hannah Doyle (asker) Mar 17, 2013:
Thanks for all of your help everyone, your ideas were really useful. I've decided to go with James's answer - I didn't like his main suggestion, but in his explanation he mentioned ''under lock and key'' and I think somehow using that in the sentence will be the most elegant option and fit best with the rest of the tone.
kashew Mar 16, 2013:
Stranglehold could be the word you are looking for? Stranglehold on the system.
emiledgar Mar 16, 2013:
I think that "fini" here means "completely" It's completely in the sense that the Druids were the only ones in Celtic society who had the material memorized. Once they were gone, the history was gone also.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Mar 15, 2013:
I agree that the danger point in the sentence is making sure that in translating "cadenasser" the meaning of "finir DE" does not become "finir PAR".
Peter Shortall Mar 15, 2013:
"Cadenasser" doesn't mean memorising or passing on knowledge, Hannah. The idea is that they were creating an exclusively oral tradition, as opposed to an oral & written one where information could also be shared in writing.
Hannah Doyle (asker) Mar 15, 2013:
But Peter how could you ever *finish* that process? Surely the act of making sure this knowledge was their domain alone and 'kept under lock and key' would be ongoing. It's not like they built new software to keep this protected, it must have been a constant process of memorising information, teaching new adepts, etc.

Thanks for the ideas so far, and perhaps James is right and I'm just driving myself mad! Maybe it's one of those times in translation where you have to ignore the part for a bit and come back to it refreshed!
Peter Shortall Mar 15, 2013:
"Fini" They're not finishing with the knowledge per se. They finished the task of preventing it from being spread around easily. Druids (Celtic priests/religious specialists) were held up as leaders of their society, and their power over their fellow Celts derived from their knowledge. Knowledge could be passed on by e.g. writing (which spread with the Romans - the Celts were largely illiterate) or by giving it to too many people, so they had to protect their specialist knowledge to preserve their own power within Celtic society. That's the task they had finished.
James Perry Mar 15, 2013:
Actually, I would agree with DLyons. You'll drive yourself mad, poring over this one thing for too long.
James Perry Mar 15, 2013:
I think you need to read on and get the wider sense of the text, if possible.
Jocelyne Cuenin Mar 15, 2013:
Comme dit DLyons ils avaient le monopole. Ils avaient fini de cadenasser... = ils avaient perfectionné leur monopole. Ils ne pouvaient pas faire mieux.
Hannah Doyle (asker) Mar 15, 2013:
I suppose it's more the 'fini' than the 'cadenasser' that is confusing me. Why is the 'fini' there? I understood this as the druids held all of this knowledge, passing it on orally, but what I don't understand is how they 'had finished' (?) with it...because surely knowledge is something you continuously add to, so what was it they 'finished up'?
Hannah Doyle (asker) Mar 15, 2013:
I quite like the idea of 'sealing', thanks for that!
Jocelyne Cuenin Mar 15, 2013:
'padlocked shut' c'est le sens figuré de 'locked shut'. Eux seuls détenaient le savoir et le transmettaient de manière orale sans tolérer d'autres moyens de transmission. Mais 'cadenasser' dans ce sens figuré de verrouiller n'est pas rare en français. lock up? seal off?

Proposed translations

24 mins
Selected

make this system their own

cadenasser = "fermer avec un cadenas"
un cadenas = "boitier metallique renfermant une serrure, capable de bloquer l'extremite libre d'un arceau metallique monte sur charniere". This is the definition given in le Petit Robert (2011). It also mentions "antivol" - "cadenas a chiffres". Please forgive lack of accents - I am trying to save time.
So, a "cadenas" seems to be an ancient, very secure locking device.
Hence, we could extrapolate that the Celts kept all their knowledge "under lock and key" as it were. Or, perhaps, they had kept this system to themselves - I need a bit more context. Hope this helps a little!
Note from asker:
Thank you James, I don't like the system idea but ''under lock and key'' is very nice.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Peter Shortall : The Druids certainly kept their knowledge under lock and key (that's a very good way of putting it!), but not the Celts in general. Druids were Celtic priests - an important distinction!
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "''Under lock and key'' to somehow be worked into the sentence - most elegant option. Thank you!"
+5
19 mins

locked down / totally appropriated

Seems like the Druids had a monopoly on the oral literary, religious, legal and scientific traditions.
Note from asker:
Thanks for your reply DLyons, as I just wrote in the 'discussion', it's more the 'fini' that's giving me trouble.
Peer comment(s):
agree Guereau : totally appropriated
13 mins
Thanks Guereau.
agree James Perry
56 mins
Thanks James.
agree Peter Shortall
3 hrs
Thanks Peter.
agree gkshenaut : actually, I like “monopolize” itself
12 hrs
Thanks gkshenaut. “monopolize” works for me.
agree GILLES MEUNIER
1 day 18 hrs
Merci GILOU.
Something went wrong...
+1
14 mins

were the masters

The druids were the masters of the way knowledge was passed on.

So all this knowledge was lost when the Romans destroyed the Druid institution/traditions.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-03-15 15:25:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think "fini" just means that they had it all "tied up", they had finished the process of establishing a closed system.
Note from asker:
I think what's bothering me is the 'fini'.
Peer comment(s):
agree Peter Shortall
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
6 hrs
French term (edited): avaient fini de cadenasser

had got it all sewn up

I think this has the same meaning, and is not totally out of register, given the rest of your text.

They had so perfected the oral tradition in a way that suited themselves, that the Celtic culture was seriously harmed once they, the Druids, no longer existed. So they'd arranged everything to suit themselves — but made it dependent on their presence.
Peer comment(s):
neutral kashew : Sewn up? I don't think that's how a classical historian would put it, T.
17 hrs
Maybe not, but we do't have an overall picture of the register here, and with the use of 'cadenasser' and 'naufrage', for example, I don' think the register can be all THAT formal...
Something went wrong...
18 hrs
French term (edited): finir de cadenasser

to finish locking down/ to complete the lockdown

"Au temps de Jules César, les druides avaient fini de cadenasser ce système

"By the time of .... druids had completed the lockdown of this system"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Whilst agreeing with the general idea here, I can't help feeling that this particular expression is SO associated with prison jargon that it maybe sits uncomfortably in this antique context.
9 mins
"SO associated with prison jargon" well, it wasn't intended but what's a "cadenas" for anyway! Druids did exactly that: they "imprisoned" all the knowledge/traditions etc. in their own preserve, and wouldn't let any of it out. Any variant suggested?
Something went wrong...
1 day 7 mins

shackling

or fettering
Something went wrong...
1 day 42 mins

had perfected locking up the system

stylistically perfectible but "to perfect" is a valid translation of "finir de"
Something went wrong...
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