Jan 15, 2014 10:41
10 yrs ago
German term
Mosjös
German to English
Social Sciences
History
First World War
Military abbreviation? Nationality designator?
From a piece about trench warfare in late 1914. The entity is firing at German troops.
"sandten uns die
Mosjös ihren Morgengruß, ein paar Schrapnell vor-
auf und dann etliche Granaten als Hauptspeise. "
Many thanks in advance for your ideas.
From a piece about trench warfare in late 1914. The entity is firing at German troops.
"sandten uns die
Mosjös ihren Morgengruß, ein paar Schrapnell vor-
auf und dann etliche Granaten als Hauptspeise. "
Many thanks in advance for your ideas.
Proposed translations
(English)
3 +3 | The Monsewers | Yorkshireman |
3 -3 | Messrs. | owhisonant (X) |
Proposed translations
+3
6 hrs
Selected
The Monsewers
A derogatory name for French soldiers (or indeed the French as a whole).
The Monsewers sent us our breakfast - an appetiser of shrapnel, followed by a main course of countless shells.
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Note added at 6 hrs (2014-01-15 17:27:16 GMT)
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In WWII the expressions Franzmänner (Germany) and Frogs (Britain) would have been more likely.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2014-01-15 22:07:45 GMT)
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WW I and earlier, the German term was the term most likely to be (in its friendliest form)
"Der Franzos". Frog, frogs, froggies is typical WW II.
I know my dad called them frogs (and Vichy bastards!) when his unit helped the Free French to kick them out of Aleppo in Syria in the summer of 1941 (yes, the Brits fought against the French in WW II!) and later in Algeria and Tunisia.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2014-01-15 22:26:19 GMT)
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A bit of trivia:
Since the 18th century, the name “John Bull,” according to the OED, has personified “the English nation; Englishmen collectively; the typical Englishman.”
Early in the following century, the name “Johnny (or Jean) Crapaud” was first used to mean a Frenchman, Oxford says. (Crapaud is French for “toad.”)
Could this be what developed into frog? The most effective weapon of the French army in WW I was also called a Crapaud, a squat trench mortar.
More trivia: servicemens' nicknames for themselves and others:
ANZACs: Australians and New Zealanders (from A. and NZ. Army Corps).
Americans: Yanks. For themselves = Doughboys. French version = Sammy. German version = Teufelshunde (Devil dogs, for US Marines)
Australians: Aussie, Digger. For themselves = Billjim, Dinkum (for Australian Gallipoli veteran), Tazzie (from Tazmania), Westralian (from Western Australia).
British: Tommy, (also used by the Germans), Tommy Atkins, Fred Karno's Army, Old Contemptibles. Also Jock = Scotsman, Mick = Irishman. Australian version = Kitch = (Kitchener's Volunteer Army).
Canadians: Canuck.
Egyptians: Gyppo.
French: Frenchie, Frog. For themselves = Bon hommes (gentlemen) and Poilus (bearded ones).
Germans: Alleyman, Boche, Hun, Jerry, Kraut (from Sauerkraut), and Square head (after the shape of the STAHLHELM M1916 steel helmet). American version = Heine. For themselves = Frontschwein (Front-line pigs)
Italians: Macaroni, Itie.
New Zealanders: Digger, Kiwi, Fern-leaf (after the NZ cap-badge), Enzedder.
Ottomans/Turks: Abdul, Jacko, Johnny Turk.
Pathans: Forty Thieves. (Indian troops from the North West Frontier Province, now Pakistan).
Portuguese: Antonio, Geese, Pork and beans, Pork and cheese.
Russians: Russkie.
South Africans: Afrikaaner, Boer.
The Monsewers sent us our breakfast - an appetiser of shrapnel, followed by a main course of countless shells.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2014-01-15 17:27:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In WWII the expressions Franzmänner (Germany) and Frogs (Britain) would have been more likely.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2014-01-15 22:07:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
WW I and earlier, the German term was the term most likely to be (in its friendliest form)
"Der Franzos". Frog, frogs, froggies is typical WW II.
I know my dad called them frogs (and Vichy bastards!) when his unit helped the Free French to kick them out of Aleppo in Syria in the summer of 1941 (yes, the Brits fought against the French in WW II!) and later in Algeria and Tunisia.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2014-01-15 22:26:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
A bit of trivia:
Since the 18th century, the name “John Bull,” according to the OED, has personified “the English nation; Englishmen collectively; the typical Englishman.”
Early in the following century, the name “Johnny (or Jean) Crapaud” was first used to mean a Frenchman, Oxford says. (Crapaud is French for “toad.”)
Could this be what developed into frog? The most effective weapon of the French army in WW I was also called a Crapaud, a squat trench mortar.
More trivia: servicemens' nicknames for themselves and others:
ANZACs: Australians and New Zealanders (from A. and NZ. Army Corps).
Americans: Yanks. For themselves = Doughboys. French version = Sammy. German version = Teufelshunde (Devil dogs, for US Marines)
Australians: Aussie, Digger. For themselves = Billjim, Dinkum (for Australian Gallipoli veteran), Tazzie (from Tazmania), Westralian (from Western Australia).
British: Tommy, (also used by the Germans), Tommy Atkins, Fred Karno's Army, Old Contemptibles. Also Jock = Scotsman, Mick = Irishman. Australian version = Kitch = (Kitchener's Volunteer Army).
Canadians: Canuck.
Egyptians: Gyppo.
French: Frenchie, Frog. For themselves = Bon hommes (gentlemen) and Poilus (bearded ones).
Germans: Alleyman, Boche, Hun, Jerry, Kraut (from Sauerkraut), and Square head (after the shape of the STAHLHELM M1916 steel helmet). American version = Heine. For themselves = Frontschwein (Front-line pigs)
Italians: Macaroni, Itie.
New Zealanders: Digger, Kiwi, Fern-leaf (after the NZ cap-badge), Enzedder.
Ottomans/Turks: Abdul, Jacko, Johnny Turk.
Pathans: Forty Thieves. (Indian troops from the North West Frontier Province, now Pakistan).
Portuguese: Antonio, Geese, Pork and beans, Pork and cheese.
Russians: Russkie.
South Africans: Afrikaaner, Boer.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Rebecca Garber
: This is an attested derogatory spelling used in England in WWII for the French.
13 mins
|
neutral |
Helen Shiner
: I think this is a step too far in the direction of derogatory.../That may well be, but we have to translate not only the word but the tone otherwise it would be an overtranslation, wouldn't it?
29 mins
|
Britons of many centuries would have said that you can't go far enough when insulting the French. A true story: the signing of the treaty with the Maoris was delayed after they ate the crew of a British ship. They said they thought they were French.
|
|
agree |
H. C. Centner
1 hr
|
agree |
mcbride
1 day 53 mins
|
neutral |
Trude Stegmann
: With Helen, Mosjös is more neutral than this term/I have talked to a survivor of WWI. They were a lot more polite (on both sides) than people might imagine today. This actual term is jocular, but polite. Why inject a sentiment different from the author's?
3 days 2 mins
|
Slightly different spelling:
Das preußische Heer verlangte stürmisch den Krieg, und Blücher wetterte, es sei Zeit, „alles Schelmfranzosenzeug samt dem Musjö Napoleon vom deutschen Boden zu vertilgen".
Polite and friendly enough?
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I liked the touch of humour provided, deliberate misspelling as well like the German. Thanks!"
-3
4 hrs
Messrs.
I would use this rather than the rather more pejorative "Frenchie", let alone "frog". The author writes with some mild sarcasm and humor, but not in a derogatory fashion.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2014-01-15 14:46:49 GMT)
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Messrs. sent us their morning regards, an appetizer of shrapnel followed by a main course of several grenades...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2014-01-15 14:46:49 GMT)
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Messrs. sent us their morning regards, an appetizer of shrapnel followed by a main course of several grenades...
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
philgoddard
: Messrs is a form of address, so it has to be followed by a name. You couldn't say "Mr sent us his regards".
1 hr
|
A. Read the original, B. Messrs. is indeed an address and was once used as Sirs is today - not followed by names (pl.!).
|
|
disagree |
Helen Shiner
: This isn't even the FR spelling, so would just cloud the issue./Sounds more like a gentleman's outfitters.
1 hr
|
Obviously, Mosjös is also not the FR spelling. Messrs., while dated, is an acceptable abbreviation of Messieurs.
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|
disagree |
Yorkshireman
: Agree with Helen and Phil and Granaten are very probably artillery shells. Hand grenades wouldn't be much of a main course after shrapnel
3 hrs
|
Agree away. Your monsewers might be better. However, rifle-driven grenades were commonly used in the trenches, and you wouldn't want to be at the wrong end of one, even after a shrapnel starter ;-)
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Discussion
"Es war einmal ne Vogelscheuche
die hatte einen Hut-Schapo
und einen Frackund Stock
und einen ACH so schönen Spitzenschal.
Da kam Monsieur Mosjö le Coq der Hahn
und hickte an dem Stock
und machte Hick und Hack und hic haec hoc
und hickte an dem Stock.
Und hatte keinen Stock
und keinen ACH so schönen Spitzenschal."
A Hanoverian who moved to the North of England - I did it the other way around.
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/RhWB/call_wbgui_py_from_form?sigle...
DA kam Monsieur Mosjö
le coq der Hahnle coq der Hahn ...
http://www.physik.tu-berlin.de/~christo/Schwitter2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Monsewer'_Eddie_Gray
and music hall is the right sort of era. Thoughts?
See p.40 here:
http://www.classicly.com/download-a-sportsmans-sketches-vol-...
http://books.google.de/books?id=CcUbhSq8PzwC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA8...