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se laisser entraîner trop loin avec
désintégration du noyau atomique
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Mar 5, 2014 10:58
10 yrs ago
6 viewers *
French term

beau-père

Non-PRO French to English Law/Patents General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
This is from an insurance policy, where members of the insured's family are defined by specific relationship.
Yes, I know beau-père means father-in-law.

But it is also means stepfather. So my question is whether for this (and the beaux-frères, belles-sœurs etc. etc.) I need to specify both terms. How on earth do the French get over this confusion??

Membre de la famille:
Le conjoint ou le concubin notoire, pacsé, les ascendants ou descendants, les beaux-pères, belles-mères, sœurs, frères, beaux-frères, belles-sœurs, gendres, belles-filles, oncles, tantes, neveux et nièces de l’Assuré ou de son conjoint et tuteur légal de l’Assuré ou de son conjoint.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +8 stepfather
4 +2 father-in-law
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (2): GILLES MEUNIER, Victoria Britten

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Discussion

patrickfor Mar 18, 2014:
@AllegroTrans I understand that but we are talking french->english translation here not french->french :-)
So unless I got something wrong the english translation is in-law.
A little trick here, that made me sure 100% I was right. If it was about the "step" one member was obviously missing... The beau-fils!
In french if the wife of your son is your belle-fille, the husband of your daughter is not your "beau-fils" but your "gendre".
As there is no mention of beau-fils so belle-fille cannot be your step it has to be your in-law...
I Hope I made myself clear enough....
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 18, 2014:
@ Patrick Thanks, but as I explained before this French text is not aimed solely at French-speakers in France. It is a worldwide policy and in my view it is dangerous to make assumptions that apply only to France.
patrickfor Mar 18, 2014:
@AllegroTrans: If I may... There is no ambiguity in french as everybody knows they have to be the "in-law" I told you that almost immediately (05 march 14:02). There seems to be something about the "family" in the french culture that the engliish don't "understand" I think (+9 on stepfather!)
There is no ambiguity in english as the terms are different.
So both answers are not correct, only one is in this context.

AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 18, 2014:
I asked my client and they told me "father-in-law" (and mother-in-law, brother-in-law etc etc). However I left a note with the translation to say that this created ambiguity. Thanks for all the help, but I am closing this without grading - not because I doubt anyone's answer (they are both correct!) but because I don't want to leave a confusing glossary entry.
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
Certainly a very interesting subject I too would like to have "le fin mot de l'histoire"
Another link about the legal "side" of stepparents (in France)
LE FIGARO. - Pourquoi l'idée de créer un statut du beau-parent ou du tiers revient-il régulièrement dans l'actualité?
Sylvie Cadolle. - Il n'y a pas d'institution de la famille recomposée. Sur le plan juridique, le beau-parent et le bel-enfant sont des étrangers. Certains dénoncent ce vide. Le beau-parent ou le tiers n'a pas l'autorité parentale ni de devoir financier pour l'entretien ou l'éducation de l'enfant dont il partage la vie. Pourtant, s'il est marié avec le parent, il a le devoir de participer aux charges du ménage.
in Le Figaro 08JAN2014
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2014/01/08/01016-201...
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 6, 2014:
@ Victoria I will certainly share the results, BTW, I looked at a dozen or more bilingual insurance policies before posting the question and there is no consistency between them.
Tony M Mar 6, 2014:
@ Patrick You wrote:
"(3) What if the insured's dad/mum has a new partner in the meantime?"

Well, in my experience, any new partner also becomes a step-father/mother too. As an example, my b/f's Mum has been married twice more since she divorced his Dad, and he calls both of her later husbands 'beau père'.
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
@Tony I could agree with you on the (very) valid point you are making about closeness but I see a couple of things that makes me still believe stepfather are not included.
(1) I have a french document that clearly says (les parents du conjoint) from Europe Assistance (see my 10:28)
(2) There is no mention of the own children of the stepfather...
(3) What if the insured's dad/mum has a new partner in the meantime?
Again I am not absolute sure of what I am writing else I would have said so.
Victoria Britten Mar 6, 2014:
Share the results? I'd be very grateful. I've emailed a friend who is a family lawyer, to see if she can tell me how (/if) these distinctions are understood and will let you know if she can shed any light on the matter, just for general knowledge / future reference.
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 6, 2014:
I hope so Victoria... I have gone so far as to ask that the Company provides the full list in English. It just seems a dangerous undertaking otherwise and obviously I cannot get it wrong.
Victoria Britten Mar 6, 2014:
P.S. I suppose there really is no way of checking with your client...?
Victoria Britten Mar 6, 2014:
@Asker Ah, good point! I was in danger of heading off on the wrong track there.
Tony M Mar 6, 2014:
Logic I'd have thought, from what seems to be the context, that they would be more interested in the closeness of the family ties / involvement (if it's a case, for example, of someone's being ill preventing soemone else from travelling). In this instance, one can imagine one is more likely to be living under the same roof, say, as one's step-father or step-daughter, than ones in-laws.
Of course, since the issue doesn't arise in FR, it could be they actually meant BOTH anyway, since nothing is specified!
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
@AllegroTrans The thing is it's a french insurance from a french company and as such it will apply legal, or accepted, french concepts... no matter if the person is English or Chinese. Nobody will be able to argue that in Outer Mongolia they have different views on the matter :-) IMHO
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 6, 2014:
Victoria, Patrick Many thanks. I'm not convinced that looking at what is "normal" in France (or anywhere else) is the key to this. It is a worldwide travel insurance which just happens to have been written in French. These relatives are not being insured per se, they are simply being defined as family members.
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
Victoria... en français car il faut comprendre le lien et la manière dont il est établi avant de songer à le traduire. Il n'y a pas de lien de parenté entre la soeur de ma femme et moi, ni avec la femme de mon frère. parce qu'il n'y a pas de lien de sang. Mais mon enfant a un lien de parenté avec la sœur de ma femme et avec ses enfants bien entendu. Par contre l'enfant de l'épouse de mon frère a un lien de sang avec moi, mais pas l'enfant de la sœur de mon épouse. De même l'épouse de mon oncle n'est pas ma tante. Elle est ma tante "par alliance".

La famille c'est le sang. Le mariage n'intervient que pour la "reproduction" et donc seul le "fruit" de cette union est de mon sang et donc de ma famille. Les autres sont de la famille "par alliance". Il y a une différence.
Victoria Britten Mar 6, 2014:
So the question that remains (in my mind) is one that is common to French and English, neither of which differentiates linguistically between your brother's partner and your partner's sister. In our case, belle-soeur/beau-frère would logically seem to mean the former, since the latter is explicitly mentioned. And yet, it seems uncharacteristically generous for an insurance policy to provide for the insuree's partner's siblings' partners...
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
la famille en France se compte par le sang et le mariage (ou probablement maintenant n'importe quel lien du type mariage comme le PACS)
les degrés de lien familial sont comptés en remontant a l’ancêtre (le parent) commun.
- Mon père, ma mère, mes enfants sont de degré 1.
- Mon frère, ma soeur sont de degré 2.
- Mes oncles/tantes de de d3 (->père -> grand-père ->oncle).
- Mes cousins d4 (->père -> grand-père ->oncle->cousin)
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
votre beau-frere/belle_soeur est le mari/la femme d'un de vos frère ou soeur. Ils sont liés a vous parce que votre frère est de votre sang (2eme degré:->père ou mère -> frere ou soeur) et qu'ils sont mariés avec eux.
Votre gendre/belle fille est le/la mari/femme de votre enfant. Ils sont liés a vous parce qe votre fils est de votre sang (1er degré) et qu'ils sont mariés avec eux.
Victoria Britten Mar 6, 2014:
@Patrick pour m'aider à mieux saisir - car c'est quand même bien d'avoir un Français sur le coup ! - dans votre exemple, selon vous, qui serait désigné par "les beaux-frères et belles-soeurs, les gendres et belles filles" ? Steps AND in-laws ?
Victoria Britten Mar 6, 2014:
Yes, but in the case we're talking about, the partner's parents are already explicitly covered: "les ascendants ou descendants ... de l’Assuré ou de son conjoint"
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
In french.... J'ai trouvé ça chez Europe Assistance
"MEMBRE DE LA FAMILLE
Par Membre de la famille, on entend le conjoint, le pacsé ou le concubin notoire vivant sous
le même toit, l’(les) enfant(s) légitime(s), naturel(s) ou adopté(s) de l’Assuré, le père et la mère,
les frères et soeurs, les grands-parents, les beaux-parents (à savoir les parents du conjoint de
l’Assuré), les petits-enfants, le tuteur légal, les beaux-frères et belles-soeurs, les gendres et
belles-filles, les oncles et les tantes, les neveux et nièces."

http://www.azimut-montagne.com/fr/content/14-assurance-europ...
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 6, 2014:
"her in-laws are in fact her husband's family" Some of them are, but take her brother's wife (i.e. her sister-in-law) - this person is not a relative of her husband. See my confusion?
patrickfor Mar 6, 2014:
@Tony "But her in-laws are in fact her husband's family and hence already accounted for"
I think I didn't make my statement clear (I will write it in french tomorrow).
One person signs the insurance contract (say hubby)
then his family is described,and then is added the same family links for his wife... For example the wife's sister is NOT included so "et de son conjoint" relates to that. It is not specifically for "parents et beaux parents". This is what I call the simmetry of the link.

BTW I guess this document is not about the insured person being dead or injured, or ill but about somebody of his family being in serious trouble and this trouble becomes a reason for being paid back for a trip a holiday rent or something of that kind....
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 5, 2014:
Hang on with the "symmetry".... My sister-in-law (my brother's wife) is not an in-law (or any other relation) to my wife. So not using the term "in-laws" at all will mean that she will not be included. Of course I cannot rule out that this is indeed what is intended. But it certainly leaves things as unclear in my mind as when I started....
Tony M Mar 5, 2014:
@ Patrick "Do you think I got something wrong?" — yes!

"If the "wife" (or both!) dies then the simmetry applies. Her in-law, brothers, uncles, nephews.... etc."

But her in-laws are in fact her husband's family (and hence already accounted for) — so it would never be expressed like this!
patrickfor Mar 5, 2014:
@Tony I'm afraid this "de l’Assuré ou de son conjoint" it there only to tell, as I wrote (16:01) the simmetry of the situation.
Let's take an example... the insured person is the "husband" if say he dies OK we know what his family is (it is described) but what if the "wife" dies? If the "wife" (or both!) dies then the simmetry applies. Her in-law, brothers, uncles, nephews.... etc.
Do you think I got something wrong?
Tony M Mar 5, 2014:
@ Asker C., leaving aside any legal / inheritance / blood relationship issues, it may be worth underlining the purely linguistic point I made in a peer comment below:

... it talks about « ...de l’Assuré ou de son conjoint », and by definition the Insured's partner could not have an X-in-law, as that would come back to being the Insured's own X!
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 5, 2014:
JOHN A You may be able to specify the beneficiary of an insurance policy, but that's not quite the point here. THEY (the insurers) are specifying who are family members in the event of a claim being made. Some interesting debate is ensuing and I am glad I have a few days before I have to return this job. Bring it on colleagues!
patrickfor Mar 5, 2014:
@John If I may... as a fully (un)qualified frenchman I know very well my country's laws on inheritance for having experienced them for more than 50 years now (and I agree with you on what you wrote, however I can tell you how to bypass all this :-) )... but we are here in front of some sort of "standard" insurance contract that's a different story altogether.
I still put my money on what I wrote. For a very simple reason already expressed here (16:01)

@Allegro: I see your point and it does make sense indeed.... But the blood link seems pretty obvious to me here. Any frenchman around to give another "french culture" point of view???
John ANTHONY Mar 5, 2014:
>>>AllegroTrans Yes, my friend. However, being a travel insurance policy, you can specify who the beneficiary/ies is/are, and it could be your neighbour... or your pet !!! Ha! Ha!
John ANTHONY Mar 5, 2014:
>>>AllegroTrans You are absolutely right !!!But as you may know, it costs £££ to get things right in either country ! :-)
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 5, 2014:
JOHN A Good points about inheritance etc. but please remember we are only talking about travel insurance here....
John ANTHONY Mar 5, 2014:
Oops... ...The stepfather or stepmother is in a legally-binding “contract” with his wife or her husband, and under certain conditions, will be the first rank heir in the UK provided the paperwork has been done properly !
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 5, 2014:
Thanks Patrick You make out a strong case - but just consider: if you are brought up by your stepfather (your mother's husband but not your biolgical father) then he is clearly a member of your family. I would be very surprised if the insurance policy intends to exclude him. The same goes for stepbrothers (or "half brothers") - very often a stepbrother is clearly part of the same household and he is indeed a blood relative.
John ANTHONY Mar 5, 2014:
...continued ! Sorry, Patrickfor, you should not put your money on your submission…! As a fully qualified lawyer in both France and the UK, I can tell you for sure that there is absolutely no way your in-laws would benefit from any inheritance – unless clearly specified in a will.
In France, the first rank heirs are the children and not the spouse, who is, unless otherwise setup, entitled to what is called the “quotité disponible”, and inheritance tax will be levied if the value of the assets exceeds the legal threshold. However, the surviving spouse can be either a joint-owner of the assets or entitled to the usufruct from the estate, but should the heirs demand their share of the assets in the first instance, the surviving spouse may have to sell in order to be able to pay them off… In the UK, the first rank heir is the spouse – and it is free of inheritance tax. However, when the surviving spouse kicks the bucket, the children will, depending on the value of the assets, pay inheritance tax.
The stepfather or stepmother is in a legally-binding “contract” with his wife or her husband, and under certain conditions, will be the first rank heir in the UK provided the paperwork has been done prope
patrickfor Mar 5, 2014:
I got that bit Allegro... I believe what the insurance policy defines is the same as what the blood tells... that will be expected in France (and in the UK too I think).
Let's forget for a minute your spouse (or "equivalent")
First in line your ascendants and descendants that is clearly
father, mother, children
then brothers, and uncles (your brothers and your ascendants's brothers)
then nephews (but not cousins)
then the spouses of your kids (gendre / belles filles)
this is clearly your direct bloodline (starting from parents because it includes your uncles/aunts but NOT their children
Very clearly 50% blood in common. plus their allies (gendre/belle soeur) because their kids are your grand children...

So now there has to be a symmetry with your spouse's relatives...
beau père / belle mère, + beau frère / belle soeur.
No stepfather wanted I think....
That's my view and I'll put money on it... :-)
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 5, 2014:
Patrick I think you misunderstood my point. This is not about what is logical or normal in a family or who is blood related - it's an insurance policy definition for the purpose of, for example, defining who is a "family member" if the insured person makes a cancellation claim in the event of the death of a "family member".
patrickfor Mar 5, 2014:
Well if blood relationship doesn't come into family then I wonder what family is all about. As I explained obviously this text is about "ascendants et descendants" that is pure blood link. Yours and your spouse"s. Father in law is the father of your wife so almost direct blood link with your kids...
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 5, 2014:
I don't think blood relationship comes into this, it's about who this insurance company are defining as family members. After all, neither a father-in-law or a stepfather is a blood relative. Thanks for all contributions so far.
patrickfor Mar 5, 2014:
I'm afraid it has to be the "in-law" that are more than technically related to your family... without them you have no spouse, so no children... so no "gendre" no "belle-fille" you are stuck with uncles/aunts nephews... :-)
Your stepfather has no blood link whatsoever with your family.
John ANTHONY Mar 5, 2014:
>>> AllegroTrans The French are clever...! I know, I lived there between 1949 and 1994, and happen to have been - and still am both a stepdad and an in law... Among the common jokes between students, one of them is : "Buy the VAT IS SIMPLE collection in 128 volumes..."! Remember THEY invented VAT in 1948 :-)
Philippa Smith Mar 5, 2014:
agree with Emma!
Emma Paulay Mar 5, 2014:
Take no chances I would definitely ask for clarification here as you can't make any assumptions as both are family members. At the very least I would put both and flag your translation for the client.

Proposed translations

+2
22 mins

father-in-law

Well I think it's still gonna be father-in-law as it seems to be talking about PACS (couple union form almost like marriage).
Peer comment(s):
agree patrickfor : Oui ils sont les ascendants de votre conjoint/concubin
1 hr
agree Virginie Mair
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
+8
22 mins

stepfather

I have no idea how the French get around this generally, but it seems obvious to me that in this case we're talking about steps, not in-laws. Apart from anything else, the partner's family are the insuree's in-laws, and vice versa.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 mins (2014-03-05 11:22:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

...and if "beau" were to mean "in-law" here, it would be unnecessary to add "ou de son conjoint".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-03-05 12:16:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

However, according to the same logic, "belle-fille" and "gendre" must refer to each partner's daughters- and sons-in-law: steps would be the partner's children and as such already mentioned. (Or a previous partner's children, in which case they are no longer officially steps once that relationship is ended.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2014-03-06 10:10:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And - got there at last - beau-frère and belle-soeur must refer to the siblings' partners, since the partner's siblings are already mentioned. Now there's the question of how in English (as indeed in French) you distinguish between a sister-in law who's your brother's partner and a sister-in law who's your partner's sister...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2014-03-06 10:19:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"must" in my previous note should have been qualified by "in logic", because if you look at it pragmatically that's phenomenally generous insurance cover, which is a rare beast indeed.
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : the logical translation in the context imo
12 mins
Thanks, writeaway!
agree Yvonne Gallagher
15 mins
Thanks, Gallagy!
agree Jean-Claude Gouin
34 mins
Thanks!
agree Lara Barnett
34 mins
Thanks!
agree John ANTHONY : Definitely...! "In-laws" have no specific rights in such instance !!
44 mins
Thanks
agree C. Tougas
58 mins
Thanks
agree Kirsten Bodart : technically in-laws are not exactly related, so they would indeed not have any special rights and, as has been pointed out, there would be no need for 'ou du conjoint', nor would it be logical at all.
1 hr
I'm not sure that we can be sure who should or shouldn't have rights; for me that's a different question
agree GILLES MEUNIER : Oui, j'ai voté Pro par erreur))
2 days 4 hrs
Thanks - I think...
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