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bonus vs. prime
régissant les parties
Jun 14, 2015 18:57
8 yrs ago
7 viewers *
French term

dans la coutume

French to English Law/Patents Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs Divorce decree
Hi,

I have taken on the translation of a divorce decree issued in Cameroon. It is very poorly written and there are a number of grammatical errors and little punctuation.

In the part describing the unacceptable behaviour of the defendant, it says:

"Que tous ces agissements constituent des violences des obligations résultants du mariage sont dans la coutume des parties et la loi motif du divorce"

I am not convinced that "violence" should not read "violations", but that's another issue.

Anyway, so far I have:

"That all of these actions constitute a breach of the obligations resulting from marriage...."

I can't make head or tail of the rest of the sentence. The complete lack of punctuation doesn't help.

I am trying to establish if it is just complete rubbish (i.e. missed words or words used incorrectly), or if I am missing something. What does "dans la coutume des parties" mean? What is "la loi motif"? Did the writer mean "le motif légal"?

I am going to have to add a translator's note about the quality of the original document, but just wondered if this makes more sense to a native French speaker than to me!

Thanks for any help in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
2 +1 in accordance with the customs/is customary
4 according to the customary practice (of the parties)
1 -1 dictates/requirements of the parties

Discussion

Jennifer White Jun 16, 2015:
Anne Well, good luck. Occasionally, when I have been unable to figure out words or phrases on this type of certificate the agency have contacted the client who has explained the meaning enabling me to redo it properly. Cheers!
Anne Bitton (asker) Jun 16, 2015:
Unfortunately I don't think I will be ever be enlightened as to what the document was meant to say Jennifer. I can't ask the client for his interpretation, for obvious reasons, and I can't really contact the issuing body. So I suppose it's a case of the UK authorities accepting my best effort along with notes or otherwise. The parts stating that the divorce has been issued are clear and not compromised by poor French. Thanks BD Finch. Yes, the situation appears to be the same in Pakistan (i.e. on marriage certificates in Urdu, there is a section saying whether or not the husband gives the wife permission to file for divorce or not!)
Jennifer White Jun 16, 2015:
@Anne Have tried to post this twice! Don't think commas would be necessary, however, would you let us know when (eventually) you learn what these mistakes were? Also, I don't think they are saying that domestic violence is part of local culture - it's illegal, although often unpunished.
B D Finch Jun 16, 2015:
Very different interpretations It is quite possible for there to be widespread domestic violence, yet for it to be unacceptable according to both custom and law. Domestic violence and child abuse are widespread in Britain and the US, while being condemned by public opinion and the law.

Many years ago, I visited Gambia and was struck by contrasts in the position of women. I could travel freely throughout the country on my own, using public transport and was invited to cultural events or to stay with people I'd been given informal introductions to or (in one case) had just met. Women were, in many ways, treated with respect by men and might have economic power in the family, yet FGM was widely practised and women were also often socially and economically oppressed. A Gambian woman whom I met told me about how she had gone to the imam and told him why she wanted a divorce (drunken husband and domestic violence) and that her husband would not agree. According to religion, custom and law, the man had complete control over divorce. The imam was very sympathetic and told her he would speak to her husband and give him the choice between granting a divorce or being socially disgraced. She got her divorce.
Anne Bitton (asker) Jun 16, 2015:
On second thoughts, the comma theory doesn't really work, as we are still left with "la loi motif" in this case...
Anne Bitton (asker) Jun 16, 2015:
Yes, it is possible that reference is being made to the fact that domestic violence is part of local culture, but against the law (ref. Daryo). If a comma is added after "mariage" and after "parties", this interpretation makes some sense. I have also noted your point Jennifer.
Jennifer White Jun 15, 2015:
Just a thought Could "sont" be "soit"?

I have handled many such certificates, ie unclear script and errors, and I have never second-guessed the meaning. I think, if unsure, it's best to write "unclear" and put a translator's note.
mimi 254 Jun 15, 2015:
could you please provide the sentence before or/and after this?
Daryo Jun 15, 2015:
"Que tous ces agissements constituent des violations des obligations résultants du mariage

is more or less what makes sense

sont dans la coutume des parties et la loi motif du divorce"

two options these "agissements"

it's part of local customs but it is against the law

is against local customs and against the law

that part is not very clear, but from the whole ST it might be possible to make some sense of it.
Anne Bitton (asker) Jun 15, 2015:
Thanks Nikki. It is starting to make a bit more sense now. I will just have to do my best in the circumstances. Thanks for all help.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jun 15, 2015:
Another suggested reading :

Original : "Que tous ces agissements constituent des violences des obligations résultants du mariage sont dans la coutume des parties et la loi motif du divorce"

Possible reading : « Que tous ces agissements (constituent des violences, des obligations résultants du mariage), sont dans la coutume des parties et la loi, motif du divorce".

It's a shot in the dark though as it is possible to imagine a number of different endings for words, different punctuation and maybe even a "qui" or a "que" missing.
Anne Bitton (asker) Jun 15, 2015:
I think I am going to go for this in the end and add a translator's note:

-That all of these actions constitute a breach of the obligations resulting from marriage and are grounds for divorce according to the customs of the parties and the law. I have had to take out "sont" and "et" though, as Wendy suggested, otherwise it makes no sense .
Jocelyne Cuenin Jun 15, 2015:
Je crois qu'on distingue la loi et la coutume (les agissements sont des 'grounds for divorce' aussi bien du point de vue de la loi que du point de vue de la coutume des deux parties.)

coutume (cnrtl) : 1. DR. ANC. Droit, non-écrit ou codifié tardivement, propre à un peuple puis à un groupe social et formé par un ensemble de règles juridiques (régissant les affaires publiques comme les affaires privées) établies sur des usages locaux, règles qui ont force de lois, sans avoir été promulguées comme telles, pour autant qu'elles soient acceptées par tout le groupe intéressé.
Anne Bitton (asker) Jun 14, 2015:
Thanks. It's getting a bit tenuous. Definitely makes sense though. I will note as a possibility.
Wendy Streitparth Jun 14, 2015:
Or add "et" sont.... and are grounds for divorce according to the law and the customs of the parties.
Wendy Streitparth Jun 14, 2015:
Yes, I was thinking "legal grounds for divorce". If you leave out "sont" it could be "according to the customs of the parties (involved)".
Anne Bitton (asker) Jun 14, 2015:
Yes, thanks Wendy, I did think of that myself. It is quite likely and would solve one problem. However, I still don't really understand what "dans la coutume des parties" means (not to mention the "loi motif" bit! I suppose the last part is intended to mean "the legal reason for divorce" (hazarding a guess).
Wendy Streitparth Jun 14, 2015:
Would it make more sense if it were "constituant"?

Proposed translations

+1
2 hrs
Selected

in accordance with the customs/is customary

Maybe violence between spouses is "customary" in this case

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-06-14 21:49:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

CAMEROON - the United Nations
www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/csw/csw57/.../Cameroon.pdf
Violence against women and girls in Cameroon is perpetrated by several members of the society, including parents, family members, spouses, public authorities ...
[PDF]Violence against Women in Cameroon - World Organisation ...
www.omct.org/files/2004/07/2409/eng_2003_03_cameroon.pdf
legal, economic, and social status of women in Cameroon, violence at the hands of ..... shared equitably between the two ex-spouses, but in practice the women.
[PDF]CAMEROON Committee on the Elimination of ...
tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/.../INT_CEDAW_NGO_CMR_16206_E.pd...
24 Jan 2014 - These acts of violence against women also conflict with Cameroon's Constitution, .... negotiate compensation or marriage as settlement. 33.
[PDF]First Intimate Physical Violence and Fertility in Cameroon
www.springer.com/cda/content/.../cda.../9783319166698-c1.pd...
tal spousal violence, and having a husband or male partner who drinks alcohol. Keywords Fertility • Intimate physical violence • Women • Cameroon.
Women in Cameroon
www.asafeworldforwomen.org/...cameroun/624-women-in-cameroo...
In many regions of Cameroon a woman traditionally was regarded as the property of ... Violence and discrimination against women, trafficking in persons, and ... the Civil Code concerning the right of spouses to administer communal property, ...
[PDF]CAMEROON
www.africa4womensrights.org/public/Dossier_of.../Cammeroon-...
legislation; violence against women, including harmful traditional practices such as early and forced marriage and female genital mutilation; and limited access ...
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo : yes, they are making references to local customs ... and the laws separately
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks AllegroTrans. "
-1
31 mins

dictates/requirements of the parties

Based on what I found in Larousse.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : doesn't make any sense in this sentence + I can't see in which context "la coutume" could be "requirements of the parties"?
13 hrs
Something went wrong...
20 hrs

according to the customary practice (of the parties)

First of all, you need to correct the errors and parse this correctly:
"Que tous ces agissements/ constituent [constituant] des violences [violations] des obligations résultants du mariage/ sont dans la coutume des parties et la loi motif du divorce"

So they are grounds for divorce both according to the customary practice of the parties and the law.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2015-06-15 15:16:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It is worth bearing in mind that Cameroon has up to 300 ethnic groups and languages and so there are probably scores of different sets of customary grounds for divorce.
Something went wrong...
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