Björn Vrooman Sep 11, 2016:

PS Here's another outlier:
"All accounts must be paid in full within 30 days from the date of invoice or COB Friday 12th February 2016, whichever comes first."
http://www.themhs.org/pages/sf-registrations.html

[COB = end of business day]

At another point it says:
"Payment for Early Bird registrations must be received by COB 16th January 2016."
http://www.themhs.org/pages/sf-registrations.html

I sincerely doubt that the first option would be "at" here: it'd still be "by." You're not going to show up 5 to 5pm on a Friday in Sidney to deliver the money in cash. And your bank surely won't bend over backwards to wire money to another account around the same time.

I'll stand by what I said earlier. It's most likely missing a "by" or a similar preposition, but there's no way to know for sure unless we have more info.

Have a nice evening, all.

Björn Vrooman Sep 11, 2016:

Evening, Tony To your first paragraph:
Yes, I've noticed. That's why I said we have too little information to rule out anything. This needs to go back to the client, IMO. I wasn't able to find any contract not using a preposition after "or" if the second part was a date (I did find examples with no preposition and the meaning of "within 14 days" for both if the second bit was not a date). Even the example I quoted had explained it with "by" in the first sentence and only omitted the preposition from the second one.

To your other paragraph:
My emphasis would be on "or sooner." There are two periods here, the 14-day one and the one with "by." If someone can come up with a good enough reason why the amount should be paid either within 14 days or on a specific date bar all others, please let me know. Why should there be a penalty if the money is on your account earlier than expected? Same is true for normal payments - that's why you have cash discounts in the first place. And last but not least, using "on" is no different from using "by" here: Both are additions and I don't believe you have the authority to choose one over the other.

Best wishes

Tony M Sep 11, 2016:

@ Björn Apart from one of the examples you cite, which seems to reproduce the same error as the source text here (i.e. what seems to be the assumption of a missing 'by'), the others all involve the use of a second preposition to replace 'within... of'

I don't agree, though, that 'on' is not viable / incorrect in this sort of context; there could be very many perfectly good business reasons why payment needs to be made on some specific future date, or sooner.

Björn Vrooman Sep 11, 2016:

Now, here you have an interesting example. First it says:
"Your application must be filed within 60 days of the damage or by June 30 of the tax year in which the damage occurred, whichever is later"

Later, it says:
"Application must be submitted within 60 days of damage or June 30, whichever is later."
https://www.oregon.gov/DOR/forms/FormsPubs/app-for-proration...

Since we do not have the full context, I couldn't say.

Although these two statements are certainly not correct:
"a set date [date of acceptance of product] OR on a set date [the [date] ]"
"Similarly for this case, the company intends to make sure that it will receive payment either within a specific period from a set date OR on a set date."

As Tina and others have said before, it should be "by," not "on." Forcing someone to pay on a very specific date makes absolutely no sense to me from a business point of view. The earlier you receive your money, the better.

Overinterpretation and re-interpretation is a very dangerous path to go down.

Björn Vrooman Sep 11, 2016:

Here are some sources, Tony (@Rebeca, too) "Quite a common clause"
- I did click on your link and skimmed through the pages - and it turned up nothing of consequence, probably because the search parameters were inaccurate.

Let's drop the (pretty irrelevant) "acceptance" bit and include "whichever," and voila:
https://www.google.ca/search?q="within * days of the date of...

You'll see that MANY versions are possible.

With "by":
"Note that you must activate this payroll subscription within 60 days of purchase or by May 31, 2017, whichever comes first."
http://www.costco.com/payroll-services.html

With "prior":
"A signed PO must be received by NACAC within 30 days of your registration order, or prior to July 13, whichever comes first."
http://www.nacacnet.org/college-fairs/pva-college-fairs/pvae...

With "before":
"Flat rate fees are payable to MPLC within ten (10) days of the Invoice date or before the screening whichever is
earlier."
http://www.mplc.ie/file/price_list.pdf

Margarida Martins Costelha Sep 8, 2016:

Once again: spot on, Tony. Couldn't have said it better myself :)

Tony M Sep 8, 2016:

@ Germaine I'm sorry, on this occasion I have to disagree with you on all points!

No, clearly one would never repeat 'within 14 days of' — that is one of the beauties of EN that it can be streamlined in this way.

No, there is no need to repeat the 'of' ('twas not I that suggested that) — BUT it would be perfectly legitimate to do so, since 'with 14 days of... or of...' is perfectly correct EN (if unnecessary).

HOWEVER, adding 'by' WOULD not be legitimate, since it then changes the whole preposition from 'within ... of' to 'by'.

If you take out the first subclause, you'd end up with 'within 14 days of'... '[second date]' which is perfectly fine.

We have no way of knowing (and it is not our job to guess!) WHY the writer might have chosen to stipulate 'within 14 days of...' both dates — but as I have sought to explain, in business there could be many reasons for this; the second date might be some kind of back-stop date, for example, with 14 days being the allowable payment delay to take account of the time taken for the money to go through; we simply don't know!

'Whichever is the earlier' does not in any way imply a 'période' as you suggest — the earlier of two dates is a common concept.

Germaine Sep 8, 2016:

Tony, Really, just stop and think about it for 30 seconds. Would you really dare deliver a statement saying "within 14 days of the date of Acceptance of the Product or within 14 days of September 10th? Would I be the client, first thing I'd ask you would be: is there any reason you cannot just put "by/on Septembre 24"?? Is it to create a misunderstanding/litigation if customer pays Sept. 25 instead of Sept, 24 or what?

La phrase se lit (en remplaçant "Date" par une date fictive):
Price will be payable within 14 days of the date of Acceptance of the Product OR September 10, 2016, whichever is the earlier.
Si, comme tu le dis à Veronika, on ne peut ajouter "by", on ne peut pas davantage ajouter "of". Par ailleurs, le texte indique clairement 2 DATES et non deux "périodes", which would defeat the "whichever is the earlier" concept.

Veronika McLaren Sep 8, 2016:

I would hesitate to repeat the 14 days bit. Following Tony's advice would have to be simply putting (or leaving) the date (if specified) in brackets; after all, the preposition "of" is not repeated.

Châu Nguyễn Sep 8, 2016:

Interesting different point of view Dear sir, at the beginning I did what you did. I only stick to the every words that were given to me by the client. Yet, I received bad feedback since it took the client long time to understand the translation. I also work as an interpreter, the audience would not understand if I stick too close to the speakers' every words. Then I changed my method. Now I listen/read through, understand what is said/written, then translate my understanding of them. I have been getting more positive feedback since then. I think in the end, it's all about getting the message across to the other language.

Tony M Sep 7, 2016:

@ Asker You can only translate the text you are given; it is not our job to interpret or to assume we know "what the writer really meant to say" or to correct for what is usual or logical... If you suspect the possibility of an error in the source text, then all you can do is to indicate this to your customer so that they can seek clarification from the original source.

Yes, we've all seen contracts where there is a deadline of 'x days from date of acceptance OR by some kind of cut-off date' — but it is equally possibly to have wording such as 'within 14 days of X date or within 14 days of Y date, whichever is the sooner'; typically, the 14 days might be the time allowed for the payment to be issued and received, and so it is not inconceivable that the 14-day period could apply to BOTH dates.

The only thing that is clear from the source text as it stands is that the syntax of 'within 14 days of...[date] or [date]' can ONLY mean Asker's option #1 — for it to have the #2 meaning, it requires a 'by' for the second date which is NOT present as it stands. If this were the only possible correct meaning, then it might be tempting to assume an error; but there is a viable meaning as it stands.

Germaine Sep 7, 2016:

With Châu Nguyễn the company intends to make sure that it will receive payment either within a specific period [14 days] from a set date [date of acceptance of product] OR on a set date [the [date] ] . Quite a common clause:
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&es...

Rebeca Martín Lorenzo (asker) Sep 7, 2016:

@Châu Nguyễn
I agree. One of my cousins is a lawyer and he also confirmed this suspicion to me.

Châu Nguyễn Sep 7, 2016:

intention speaks louder than grammar I translated several contracts and was too often caught in the pitfall of trying to decipher their grammar structure. Then I learned that it is the intention of the legal department to make the wording as complete and strict as possible, yet, as cryptic and difficult to understand as possible. This discourage the average reader to thoroughly read and understand everything written in the contract, thus, signing the contract in a hurry. So in the end if the signing party makes a mistake, the other party has concrete excuses to avoid any damages whatsoever.
Similarly for this case, the company intends to make sure that it will receive payment either within a specific period from a set date OR on a set date.

Rebeca Martín Lorenzo (asker) Sep 7, 2016:

I wrote dates instead of days in option 1, sorry Of course I meant "or within 14 days of X date". It is a typo.

Veronika McLaren Sep 7, 2016:

I wonder if payment will be made (or due) whether the product is accepted or not.