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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

périmètre de l\\\'Agglo

English translation:

perimeter of the Agglo*

Added to glossary by Lara Barnett
Jan 16, 2019 14:05
5 yrs ago
7 viewers *
French term

périmètre de l\'Agglo

French to English Marketing Real Estate Swiss French, Property specifications
I thought of "suburban agglomeration", but I still think that sounds a bit "French" as we do not really use "agglomeration" in property specs. Is there a good way to phrase this?

La commune de Corminboeuf se situe à cinq kilomètres de la ville de Fribourg. Elle fait partie du périmètre de l'Agglo Fribourg.
Proposed translations (English)
5 +3 perimeter of the Agglo*
4 +2 outskirts of the Fribourg metropolitan area
3 +2 On the outskirts of?
Change log

Jan 16, 2019 14:28: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "Property specifications" to "Swiss French, Property specifications"

Discussion

Ph_B (X) Jan 17, 2019:
Err... Agglo, esp. with a capital C ?? Please read: A.
Ph_B (X) Jan 17, 2019:
Agglo (2) The link to the quote at the end of my previous message is: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte...
Ph_B (X) Jan 17, 2019:
Agglo This is just to confirm that - in France anyway, and it might well be the case in Switzerland as well - Agglo, esp. with a capital C, is not just a buit area within, say, une commune - which is indeed one possible meaning for agglomération. It is also an administrative entity in its own right: roughly speaking, it's several communes that got together to share equipments, services, etc. And there are Agglos that more fields and forests than buildings and shopping centres. I live in a rural Agglo and it has more sq. km of lakes, woods and farms than built-up areas. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Tony on that one; Agglo isn't just a "pompous administrtaive language for a town / city" - it's a kind of adminsitrative district with its own président and conseil de l'Agglomération (I'll leave it to native speakers of English to find the right terms). The official French term (sorry, no idea what it might be in Switzerland and no time to look for it I'm afraid) is communauté d'agglomération, as defined here: La communauté d'agglomération est un établissement public de coopération intercommunale regroupant plusieurs communes...
B D Finch Jan 17, 2019:
@Tony I don't think that a general dictionary is the best reference source to use here. "Built-up area" could sometimes work, but not here because this is both geographical and administrative. It's not really "pompous administrtaive language", because the current extent of urban sprawl and corresponding administrative arrangements is unprecedented and needs new terms to describe it. It has even been suggested that the whole of Switzerland is a single "agglo"!
Lara Barnett (asker) Jan 16, 2019:
@ all & Tony Yes, thanks. I am aware "agglomeration" does not have the same meaning in English, hence the posting of this question. Has been very interesting and answer has now been chosen.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jan 16, 2019:
proper noun As Tony and others point out, in terms of scale, "agglomeration" does not suit the context. However, the context is specific, a capital letter and short form "Agglo" points to a specific term, used as a proper noun, with reference to Fribourg. In that context, arguments for using the original term, with the capital letter, hold a fair bit of water! ;-) A footnote would seem appropriate.
Tony M Jan 16, 2019:
@ Asker If you look up 'agglomération' in a decent dico like Robert-Collins, you'll see it is just rather pompous administrtaive language for a town / city, except when it is being used more generally still to refer to a 'built-up area'.
We definitely do not use 'agglomeration' in this way in EN, the closest in certain circumstances might be 'conurbation', though in EN that normally implies two or more towns that more or less form a single whole, which is by no means necessarily the case with an 'agglomération'.
Lara Barnett (asker) Jan 16, 2019:
Another question... Another question on this text if anybody is interested:

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/6613196
John Peterson Jan 16, 2019:
Urban area If the target language is British English, I'd probably avoid urban district, which was a pre-1974 local government set-up. Urban area might work better
Lara Barnett (asker) Jan 16, 2019:
Urban? I have now tried "urban district" and "urban community of..". Would either of these work?

Proposed translations

+3
26 mins
Selected

perimeter of the Agglo*

In terms of urban development, an agglomeration has a specific meaning. As your term specifically refers to Fribourg and that "Agglo" is the way the structure is officially promoted, then that term should be retained. It is being used as a proper noun with specific reference and meaning.

https://www.agglo-fr.ch/

"PÉRIMÈTRE
L’Agglomération de Fribourg constitue une corporation de droit public au sens de l’article 2 de la loi du 19 septembre 1995 sur les agglomérations (LAgg).

Communes

L’agglomération politique est composée des communes d'Avry, Belfaux, Corminboeuf, Düdingen, Fribourg, Givisiez, Granges-Paccot, Marly, Matran et Villars-sur-Glâne.

Agglomération fonctionnelle

Le périmètre de l’agglomération fonctionnelle - basé sur des considérations statistiques - est quant à lui bien plus vaste et compte plus de quarante communes."

"Suburban agglomeration" is a contradiction in terms as suburban areas will be part of an agglomeration, not the other way round. ;-)


* I'd use something close to the French with a footnote along the lines of "Agglo" is an abbreviation of the term "agglomeration" which has specific meaning with reference to Friburg, add the URL and the date consulted as a footnote.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 mins (2019-01-16 14:32:55 GMT)
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This should be a confidence level of 4/5, not 5/5. ;-)

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Note added at 33 mins (2019-01-16 14:39:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"is one of the Agglo's suburbs".
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : oh, you cheated and actually looked it up!! In this case, if it's specific to Fribourg then yes, this is the solution. I didn't bother looking and just assumed it was Swiss French/ps would have also cheated and checked if it had been my own job..
6 mins
Yup, cheated all the way as I'm lazy that way! But there is a way round this with "outskirts" and/or "suburban" or outlying, etc., which have a more natural ring to them. I just reckon it'd be good to have "Agglo" in there.
agree Ph_B (X) : Definitely agree with the explanations.
3 hrs
neutral Tony M : Whether or not Agglo is used locally as a proper noun, it is meaningless per se... it would be like referring to London as 'The Smoke' or indeed France as 'l'Hexagone' — less than helpful to a stranger, and in this context, to some extent, superfluous.
16 hrs
agree GILLES MEUNIER
17 hrs
neutral philgoddard : I don't think footnotes are appropriate in an advertising context. They're a distraction from the message.
1 day 23 mins
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+2
9 mins

On the outskirts of?

Fribourg's not all that big, I think - so 5km might be far enough to be on the outskirts. Could say Greater Fribourg area (if that's not too grand).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 mins (2019-01-16 14:18:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or an outlying district of the Fribourg canton
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : I would combine the two sentences and take out the repetition - perhaps "on the outskirts of Fribourg, five kilometres from the centre". Or you could say "an outer suburb".
13 mins
Thanks - probably need to get away from the idea of agglomeration/conurbation when talking about comparatively small areas
neutral writeaway : Sorry. but since Nikki researched the term, it does seem it's more of a proper name than a short version of agglomération. So it needs explaining more than translation.
14 mins
Thanks
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Certainly sounds natural in English, but with ref. to the "Agglo", is might not be specific enough.
22 mins
Thanks - I think that my main concern is how well these terms carrry across. For example, it would sound odd to talk about the Abdingdon conurbation (which has a similar pop. to Fribourg).
agree Tony M : I totally agree with 'outskirts' — that's literally what 'périmètre' means; I think 'outlying' would be less suitable here.
1 hr
Thanks - I'd agree about outlying. Although it tends to be used a lot by urban geographers, planners etc. I'm guessing that the text is not aimed at them.
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+2
1 hr

outskirts of the Fribourg metropolitan area

Agglomeration doesn't sound very inviting in English - more like somewhere you'd want to avoid.

www.europan-europe.eu/media/default/0001/04/e12_ch_marly_ss...
Marly is one of 10 municipalities of the Fribourg Metropolitan area that has developed a comprehensive mobility policy, promoting alternative mobility with the ...

https://bestarchitects.de/de/2019/all/.../1-MHPM-architectes...
Beschreibung. The project was built in the Fribourg metropolitan area, in the heart of the municipality of Corminboeuf. Arranged in two rows, the group of seven ...

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Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-16 16:15:10 GMT)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unité_urbaine
"En France, une agglomération urbaine (terme courant), ou une unité urbaine (terme administratif)1, est une catégorie statistique qui désigne empiriquement un territoire défini par la continuité de l'habitat ou du bâti. Une unité ou agglomération urbaine peut agglomérer plusieurs communes lorsqu'elles paraissent former ensemble une seule ville. Cette expression, qui ne correspond à aucune circonscription administrative légale, est utilisée par certains statisticiens et urbanistes de l'administration. Dans ce cadre, dans le cas d'une unité urbaine limitée à une seule commune, on parle de ville isolée."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-16 16:18:22 GMT)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglomération#Suisse
"Selon l'Office fédéral du développement territorial, en Suisse est considéré comme agglomération un ensemble d'au minimum 20 000 habitants formé par la réunion des territoires de communes urbaines adjacentes. Une agglomération se constitue d'une ville centre et éventuellement d'autres communes dans la zone centrale ainsi qu'un ensemble de communes ayant un lien fonctionnel avec la zone centre. Pour qu'une commune soit considérée comme faisant partie d'une agglomération elle doit répondre à trois des cinq conditions suivantes13 :

Lien de continuité avec la ville-centre de l’agglomération ;
Densité élevée de population et d’emplois ;
Évolution démographique supérieure à la moyenne ;
Secteur agricole peu développé ;
Interdépendance prononcée de pendulaires avec la ville-centre et, suivant les cas avec d’autres communes de la zone-centre."

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Note added at 2 hrs (2019-01-16 16:21:29 GMT)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_area
"A metropolitan area, sometimes referred to as a metro area or commuter belt, is a region consisting of a densely populated urban core and its less-populated surrounding territories, sharing industry, infrastructure, and housing.[1] A metro area usually comprises multiple jurisdictions and municipalities: neighborhoods, townships, boroughs, cities, towns, exurbs, suburbs, counties, districts, states, and even nations like the eurodistricts. As social, economic and political institutions have changed, metropolitan areas have become key economic and political regions.[2] Metropolitan areas include one or more urban areas, as well as satellite cities, towns and intervening rural areas that are socioeconomically tied to the urban core, typically measured by commuting patterns."
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : This is a good idea too, though very similar to John's "greater Fribourg area".
12 mins
Thanks phil. Greater X tends to mean an administrative area, while "agglo" is geographic.
agree Tony M : 'agglomération' is merely administrative FR for town / city; so if for British EN, I'd just use town / city as appropriate; 'metropolitan area' sounds a bit grand for a place as small as Fribourg; I suspect both of those refs. are already translations.
24 mins
It's geographic rather than administrative in both France and Switzerland. See notes added above, though the Fribourg one does include coordination of the various local authorities.
neutral writeaway : very similar to the first answer and not sure Fribourg is really large enough to have a 'metropolitan area'. It's not that big a city.
1 hr
See my notes.
agree Ben Gaia
3 hrs
Thanks Ben
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : the explanations are all perfectly sound for France. This is Switzerland and the term "Agglo", in context, is a proper noun. It needs to be used as is, perhaps with a footnote.//Cf. the "Grand Paris" and the EN versions before an off. version was estab.
4 hrs
You could be right. On the other hand, "Ville de Paris" would be translated as "City of Paris", so proper nouns can sometimes be translated.
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