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Reflutant

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

à laquelle vient aux droits la société

English translation:

ABC to which XYZ holds the rights; XYZ that subrogates in the rights of ABC

Added to glossary by suewiddicombe
May 9, 2019 11:07
5 yrs ago
10 viewers *
French term

à laquelle vient aux droits la société

French to English Law/Patents Construction / Civil Engineering court case on defective materials or handling
Hello, this is a tongue twister.
"La société ABC à laquelle vient aux droits la société XYZ"

My question: Which company holds the right of which company??

Many thanks. I have seen the other ProZ entries but they say clearly which is the company that holds the rights of which company. In this locution, this is not clear - if it were: ABC qui vient aux droits de XYZ, or again ABC qui cède ces droits à XYZ, it would be clearer.
Proposed translations (English)
2 to which [] has the rights
3 +3 which is subrogated in the rights of the company

Discussion

Daryo May 10, 2019:
if you want to keep the usual order in which parties are introduced - i.e. first the initially involved party, then "the substitute" you have to turn it this way:

"La société ABC à laquelle vient aux droits la société XYZ"
=
"the company ABC, to the rights of which is/was subrogated the company XYZ"

or reshuffle the whole sentence:

"the company XYZ which is subrogated in the rights of the company ABC"


The Right of Subrogation by an Insurer Against Its Insured and the Impact of Recent Legislation

The doctrine of subrogation provides that if an insurer pays a loss to its insured due to the wrongful act of another, the insurer is subrogated to the rights of the insured and may prosecute a suit against the wrongdoer for recovery of its outlay. The right of an insurer to be subrogated to the rights of its insured is typically based upon:
....
https://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/the-right-...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subrogation_personnelle_en_dro...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subrogation

etc.
Daryo May 9, 2019:
They haven't "forgotten" anything on the contrary - French legalese has very long memory - I wouldn't be surprised to find that "à laquelle vient aux droits " was already in use 2 - 3 - 4 or more centuries ago.

Just another example: even after the mass meeting between M. Guillotin and a large chunk of the French aristocracy about 230 years ago you still have nowadays the legal concept of "fait du prince".
James Roden May 9, 2019:
À laquelle/ de laquelle/ dont vient... Certainly your google search finds many examples of this formulation, which makes less likely my initial supposition that it is a single drafting error on the part of the author of the text of the asker.

That said, I maintain that it makes no sense, so my contention, bold though it may be, is that a whole generation of French legal drafters seem to have forgotten what the words in their language mean. Perhaps it is a widespread error, such as "dis dont" instead of "dis donc" and "autant pour moi" instead of "au temps pour moi"?

Mercifully there is one result on that page that gives the formulation "dont vient aux droits la société Valnor" which is closer to "de laquelle" than to "à laquelle". I wonder if a native French speaker can explain why this strange expression is used in this way.
Daryo May 9, 2019:
NO, it doesn't but it's possible to find few samples on the Web where "vient aux droits" was used, and from these samples you can see what's the meaning.

Also, from these samples, it seems that it's as much about "inheriting obligations" of another company, not only rights.

XXX à laquelle vient aux droits ZZZ means that ZZZ has taken over all rights and obligations of XXX in relation to some third party, that ZZZ has substituted itself to XXX as a party in a contract with some third party.

https://www.google.com/search?q="vient aux droits la société...

You have to look at a term meaning that one of the present contractual parties (ZZZ) took the place of a party who was initially involved (XXX) - all that in contract with some other third party.

NOTHING to do with "one company having rights on another company", but about "inheriting rights and obligations of another company"
suewiddicombe (asker) May 9, 2019:
The phrase contains all that is necessary to understand the problem - there isn't any more context, but it is possible that the lawyer author of the document has made a grammar mistake since to me the phrase doesn't make sense, I agree.
Daryo May 9, 2019:
this is only a fragment of a sentence - not very helpful.

And yes, something sounds rather odd.

What you can find as a real life sample, that sounds more like "normal French":

la SCI Imago, aux droits de laquelle vient la SCI Foncière Cogolin,
Ph_B (X) May 9, 2019:
Is this the whole sentence? The sentence as shown is not right.[EDIT] It is, actually. Ooops.

Proposed translations

11 mins
French term (edited): de laquelle vient aux droits la société
Selected

to which [] has the rights

I have only ever seen "venir aux droits de" as in XYZ "vient aux droits de" ABC. I think there are too many "à" here and not enough "de" so I think it's a drafting error (although I would welcome the confirmation or otherwise of a French native on that point).

Thus I believe it should say either

ABC aux droit de laquelle vient XYZ
OR
ABC de laquelle vient aux droits XYZ

But if that is true the error could cut both ways, they could have got themselves in a right pickle even if they meant:

ABC qui vient aux droits de XYZ

The only way to be certain is to work out from context (who had the rights relating to whom in the facts of the case) or ask the client to explain the situation (which may be difficult if this is just an old case report and none of the parties are a client).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2019-05-09 13:18:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Quoted examples given at the link to dictionnaire-juridique.com

"à la société Dia France [...] aux droits de laquelle se trouve la société Erteco France... "(Chambre sociale 13 juillet 2017, pourvoi n°16-16383, Legifrance)
, ... "la SCI Imago, aux droits de laquelle vient la SCI Foncière Cogolin [...]"(3e Chambre civile, pourvoi n°16-17817, Legifrance).
Reference:

https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/venir-aux-droits-de.php

Note from asker:
You have understood my quandary exactly - there should be a 'de' in the phrase somewhere. Can't ask client but am going with your hunch since it matches mine. Thanks a lot
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : you have found a very good reference, but your translation has no connection with it. // Using the most literal translation of some archaic legal term? Yeah sure, it's going to work fine ...
1 hr
Would beg to differ - see the quotes I have now transplanted from the reference link. The formulation "aux droits de laquelle vient" supports my first hypothesis./Asker's question = which way around. Appropriate thing would be suggest better, not sarcasm.
agree writeaway : imo the translation has a connection with the French in the question.
4 hrs
It does, and with the solutions suggested by the reference link, but it seems the formulation does exist. So I have the right translation for partly the wrong reasons!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks, I think you best understood my problem and best answered it. Hope I have understood which way around this should go. "
+3
8 hrs
French term (edited): (à) laquelle vient aux droits la société

which is subrogated in the rights of the company

Daryo's idea of substitution is the key, even if he clocks up another disagree with this answer.

However, a literal Norrman French-into-English translation, as in conveyances of land on the Channel Islands, 'comes into the rights of the co.' doesn't work either.

La société ABC à laquelle vient aux droits la société XYZ - suborgation to a party in the latter's right - alas Google (insurance) searches are mostly wrong on the right *legal* prepositions.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2019-05-10 11:05:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

On reflection of Daryo's point - it's not aux droits *de*, as I mistakenly first read but the ABC Co. #to# which (to whom) the XYZ company is subrogated #in# (the former's) rights. The prepositions are again IMO as right in French as they would be in English: subrogation to someone in and not (despite G/hits) to the latter's rights.
Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/2767811-aux-droits-de-laquelle-sest-trouvée-ultérieurement.htm

Peer comment(s):
agree Ph_B (X) : That's what I understand too (now) in spite of my embarrassing comment in the discussion box.
34 mins
Merci and thanks!
agree Daryo : although if you want to keep the same order as in the ST, you have to turn it the other way round: AAA, to the rights of which is/was subrogated BBB
5 hrs
Merci, lepo hvala and thanks for helping me *try* to unravel the puzzle and reverse the locution!
agree B D Finch
19 hrs
Thanks and merci for your support!
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