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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

en filigrane de

English translation:

with undertones/undercurrents of

Added to glossary by Yvonne Gallagher
Nov 28, 2019 14:48
4 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

en filigrane de

French to English Other Music
Could anyone please help me understand the term 'en filigrane de'? It's in a magazine article focusing on the popularity of French-language music which I used as part of my masters dissertation, I ended up translating it literally as 'filigree' because I couldn't find a better translation but it was incorrect. I'm copying and pasting it in context below.

"On assiste alors, à l’aube des années 1980, à une réelle évolution qui laisse entrevoir une musique plus industrielle, plus cyclique, inspirée de la pop, du funk et de la soul. Cette nouvelle esthétique, intimement liée à une culture de la fête et de la danse, forme un berceau idéal pour la digne héritière du disco : la house music. C’est cette même musique qui se développera au seuil du XXIe siècle, en filigrane des tubes planétaires de Madonna ou des Daft Punk."

Any suggestions would be appreciated! I plan on sending a revised version to the source-text publishers.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 with undertones of (house music)
4 +3 runs through
5 +1 underpinning
Change log

Dec 12, 2019 12:22: Yvonne Gallagher Created KOG entry

Discussion

Philippa Smith Dec 2, 2019:
@Verginia No worries!
Verginia Ophof Nov 29, 2019:
@philippa Smith sorry......https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/general-convers...
Philippa Smith Nov 29, 2019:
@Verginia ???
Philippa Smith Nov 29, 2019:
@Wolf Agree generally with what you're saying here and think your approach is tout à fait juste. ;-) I actually prefer the "permeate" you use in your comment to your proposed "run through" (which is a little more "ordinary"), but that's just my subjective opinion.
Wolf Draeger Nov 29, 2019:
@Yvonne Responding to your comment to my answer here for space, can always delete later if moot.

First, according to Asker, the term appears in a magazine article included in the thesis, not the text of the thesis itself. Second, I'm not rewriting anything. My answer is consistent with French usage. Third, and most important, you have to consider what the writer means, not just what he says. A French reader is likely to pause at en filigrane here and think "Wait, what—oh, I see what he means". It's just careless, not wrong. But there's no single expression that covers the same scope in EN, which is why it's translated differently depending on the context.

In this case, the meaning has to be that house permeates some of Madonna's 90s hits and all of Daft Punk's music. I imagine the writer would not want to come across as not knowing his subject matter because the translation tripped over his sloppy wording.

I'm not claiming my answer is the best possible—there's always a better translation out there—but I do think it's the right way to approach it.
Verginia Ophof Nov 28, 2019:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/gener ....
Philippa Smith Nov 28, 2019:
@Tony Sorry about the "too literal"! But I think we're coming at both "filigrane" and "underpinning" from slightly different directions. I see "filigrane" used a lot in a way that is not particularly faint at all - elements that are just not upfront. And I see/use "underpinning" in an abstract way. But I have also offered another answer reflecting our discussion.
Tony M Nov 28, 2019:
@ Philippa No, I'm not "taking it too literally" — I'm just trying to be sensitive to the underlying sense of the frequently-used 'filigrane' metaphor — which is that of something perceived faintly in the background. One might say it is 'echoed' in the foreground music referred to...

'underpinning', however — quite apart from being a term used in a more structural sense within music itself — strongly suggests some deliberate interaction between 'background' and 'foreground'; as I have suggested, the very literal notion of 'étayer', where it's almost more a question of the 'background' being aware of (and supporting) the 'foreground', which — although almost inevitably true! — isn't really the point the writer seems to be seeking to make here.
Philippa Smith Nov 28, 2019:
But thinking about it, maybe you're saying that "underpinning" is too strong, which it could be - I'll add an alternative.
Philippa Smith Nov 28, 2019:
@Tony To answer your second point from your comment, I think you're taking "filigrane" too literally - you need to forget about "watermark" and look at what it is saying. "En filigrane" is used in this abstract way a lot (in the stuff I translate anyway!).
Philippa Smith Nov 28, 2019:
@Tony Hi Tony, I didn't see your post when I posted my answer! But I think "underpinning" is not at all risky and the mot juste - it is saying that house is what those pop hits were built on.
Tony M Nov 28, 2019:
@ Asker The sense here is certainly not 'filigree', but rather, as a 'watermark' — something faint in the background.
Quite how you describe the whole musical movement as 'background', I don't know! Perhaps 'as a backdrop to...'? Or even 'underpinning', though that's a bit more risky!

Proposed translations

+4
3 hrs
Selected

with undertones of (house music)

I got inspired by the discussion to think of this, and it keeps the musical reference

undertones of house music in the big/major hits of Madonna and Daft Punk

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/undertone

or even perhaps undercurrent

Peer comment(s):
neutral SafeTex : Undercurrents is super so I just can't give an agree to "undertones". But if you posted it as a second suggestion...
24 mins
You seem to have a thing for posting twice? it's discouraged and no need for it as heading can easily be changed for glossary if chosen. Already bolded anyway> here again UNDERCURRENTS
agree ormiston : I also like UNDERCURRENTS
15 hrs
Many thanks:-)
agree Tony M : I think this is ideal, if it can be worked in using a formulation as you suggest.
19 hrs
Thanks:-) I actually like the "underscoring" of the previous Kudoz query as well as it keeps a musical ref.
agree Stephanie Benoist
2 days 44 mins
Many thanks:-)
agree Michael Confais (X)
3 days 1 hr
Many thanks:-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
11 mins

underpinning

It's saying that house music provides the background to the big pop hits mentioned - that even though the hits aren't classified as house, that's what thy are influenced by/draw on. I think "underpinning" works well to get the idea across.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2019-11-28 15:25:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Based on my discussion with Tony, I suggest an alternative: "a discreet influence" which is not as strong and so could get across the idea of something very much in the background....
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : As I suggested in the discussion; though I do think this is a little bit risky, as it almost turns the sense round... Yes, but 'underpinning' is more like the paper than the watermark; and also suggest 'étayer', not the sense here.
5 mins
Ta! Yes, I answered you in the discussion. I think it works very well in this context, esp. as the underpinnings of something are invisible, like a literal "filigrane".
neutral ormiston : Underpinning suggests in some way supporting it, as Tony says
42 mins
That's why I added a 2nd proposal. And underpinning has an abstract sense too, imho.
agree Eliza Hall : I like this.
23 hrs
Thanks Eliza!
Something went wrong...
+3
4 hrs

runs through

The problem is that en filigrane is used a bit carelessly here. Madonna's house tracks of the 90s are just that—house music—and Daft Punk IS French house music. There's nothing subtle or implicit in the influence of house on either artist at the time, no reading between the lines, no picking up strains of house in the arrangement or between notes or beats. House is in the foreground and background and in your face.

To avoid confusion, I'd go with something along the lines of "runs through" which is close enough to the FR but stronger and more accurate. Or a synonym like "pervade" or "permeate" and so on.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2019-11-28 20:00:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If you want a musical metaphor, you could use "set the tone" for Madonna's 90s house hits and then "run through" for Daft Punk (not that you have to have two terms in EN).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2019-11-29 10:47:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As to how far a translation can deviate from the source, it often depends on what purpose or function both texts are meant to serve. In this case, the magazine article is intended to inform and entertain the reader and there's no reason why the translation mustn't do likewise, meaning any inaccuracies in the source can and should be corrected, or at the very least flagged before publishing.

Also, en filigrane here is careless but not outright wrong. In fact, "run through" is one of the translations given in my Collins-Robert. You have to compare what the writer said to what they meant to say and see if the words and meaning match. As we all know from experience, that's not always the case. The translator must then interpret the meaning based on the subject matter and context and everything else they know or can find out on the topic.

Applying the softer or more usual figurative meaning of en filigrane here to say for example that Daft Punk's music has echoes or traces of house is like saying that Beethoven's symphonies have a classical or orchestral feel to them or that the Rolling Stones are tinged with rock or that if you listen carefully you can pick out the jazz tunes in Miles Davis...

Supposedly the writer reached for a literary expression and didn't stop to consider whether it was suitable to the text. It's careless and all too common. If the translation reproduces the error, it lets down the reader and in this case makes the writer look like a fool. Not cool.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2019-11-29 10:49:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Grr, messed up some tags in my last note, not meant to be all in italics, sorry.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2019-11-29 11:18:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Not sure why I have a bee in my bonnet, the tone of my answer is a bit snippy. Apologies if any feathers ruffled, no disrespect meant (and sorry again for the all-italics...).
Example sentence:

It came into its own in the 90s, running through chart-busting hits by Madonna and the music of Daft Punk.

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_music#21st_century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_house

Peer comment(s):
agree Cyril Tollari : That's my understanding. En filigrane is not used properly here.
14 hrs
Thanks, Cyril.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : You have to translate what the author has written, not what you think they should have said/Don't agree with you, this is reproduced in an MA dissertation so not up to Asker to rewrite it. Presumably author had some idea of what the music was about...
14 hrs
No; see my note.
agree Tony M
17 hrs
Thanks, Tony.
agree Eliza Hall
19 hrs
Thanks, Eliza.
Something went wrong...
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