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Nov 22, 2010 18:15
13 yrs ago
French term

la mort est le seul mendiant qui n'aura qu'un refus

Not for points French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature yourcenar
Here is the full verse from M. Yourcenar "Les Charites d'Alcippe", second last verse (please excuse lack of diacriticals):

Temoin desespere de mes metamorphoses,
Sans pouvoir se saisir d'etre que je fus,
Comme on cherche un parfum au coeur secret des roses,
La mort, pour me trouver fouillant au sein des choses,
Est le seul mendiant qui n'aura qu'un refus.

This is not for a paid professional job, purely self interest at this point to get second opinions. If I ever do publish the translation I will gladly achknowledge or renumerate anyone who assists.

Thanks

Lang
Proposed translations (English)
4 death is the only beggar that will be refused
3 +1 Death is the only beggar who will always meet with refusal
3 Death is the only beggar who will just be refused... '
4 -2 death is the only mendinant who benefits of a denial
3 -1 Death is the only vagrant to hear but one refusal
3 -1 Death is the only beggar one can turn down but once
3 -1 Death is that one beggar to be rejected once but not again
3 -1 Death... /Is the one wayfarer to whom I would grant welcome
2 -1 Death is the only beggar who is rejected no more than once
1 -1 death is the only beggar that won't take no for an answer
References
The next verse:
Change log

Nov 23, 2010 13:25: marie-christine périé changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Stéphanie Soudais, Alison Sabedoria (X), marie-christine périé

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Discussion

Beila Goldberg Nov 23, 2010:
The problem with Marguerite Yourcenar is that you have to digest nearly each word.
She had her fans (French intellectuals), was the first woman elected as Membre de l'Académie Française, so she will for ever remain in the Hall of Fame even if nobody would be reading her anymore.
For who might be interested to exercice himself or herself in translating her works or assists our asker :
http://www.aufildemeslectures.net/index.php?P=y&au=126
MatthewLaSon Nov 23, 2010:
I suppose if it meant "to be rejected only once", the French probably would read something like "n'aura qu'un seul refus"; but again, I cannot be entirely sure of the meaning here without having fully grasped the context here.

I also understand BD Finch's idea that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but in contexts such as these, one can never be sure of the meaning without digesting the whole passage.

Best of luck to the Asker!
Allison Wright (X) Nov 23, 2010:
a Spanish translation from reference from Asker Testigo desesperado de mis metamorfosis,
Sin poder alcanzar el ser que una vez fui,
Como se busca un perfume en el corazón de las rosas
La muerte para encontrarme excavando las cosas,
En único mendigo rechazado se convierte.

My Spanish is sketchy, but it would seem the meaning of the original has been slightly modified.
Beila Goldberg Nov 23, 2010:
Bon courage pour la traduction et bonne chance pour la publication !
Marguerite Yourcenar is not a piece of cake, even in French.
imatahan Nov 22, 2010:
More or less. They joke with the word, that has two different meanings: beggar and a cake dark brown as the clothes of the monastic religious.
It means that you don't refuse death, as you don't refuse some help to a beggar and you don't refuse to eat a mendiant, because its tasty...
Richard Nice Nov 22, 2010:
I know... but are you saying death is personified as a cake?
imatahan Nov 22, 2010:
There is a cake called mendiant, in France, that has it's name because the mixture os seeds gives it a mixture of colors that ressamble the beggar or monastic religious orders clothes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendiant

So, the phrase may be playing with the words, with the two meanings of the words. It's something "untranslatable".
Richard Nice Nov 22, 2010:
Your move You seem to see something there that I don't, so perhaps you would like to offer your reading first? (I don't see cake, for a start...).
imatahan Nov 22, 2010:
I think that mendiant in this poem refers to the cake, and as so it is indeed difficult to translate.

Proposed translations

-2
17 mins

death is the only mendinant who benefits of a denial

"Mendinant" comes from French so you might want to preserve it as well in the English version, since the sense is not distorted in any of the both languages meaning mendicant, begging friar. Since in French the negation is limitation fixing I am assuming that turning it to an assertion in English would not be so bad. Greetings and I will appreciate any type of feedback concerning my answer :-)
Peer comment(s):
neutral Jonathan MacKerron : mendinant ??
39 mins
Jonathan, good day, thank you for your feedback! In deed, in French is "mendiant" meaning: Personne qui mendie, demande l'aumône.Personne qui mendie pour vivre. The English term I know is "mendinant" as a mendicant or begging friar. I consider your answer
disagree B D Finch : I don't think that the word "mendinant" is to be found in any English dictionary. Also, "who benefits of a denial" is grammatically incorrect - wrong preposition.
16 hrs
disagree cc in nyc : I think you mean "mendicant," but your overall phrasing seems a little strange (even for poetry).
20 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

death is the only beggar that won't take no for an answer

or is it the other way round??

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-11-22 19:34:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

death is the only beggar you can only refuse once (?)
Peer comment(s):
neutral Richard Nice : which way is that? and he seems to take no once? curious
14 mins
codswallop either way I'm afraid...
disagree cc in nyc : True indeed, but I don't think that's in the French.
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
2 hrs

Death is the only vagrant to hear but one refusal

My reasoning being that as few want to die, death is normally granted its wish. The one who refuses is the one who dies.
Peer comment(s):
disagree cc in nyc : Sorry, I meant to write: I think it's "only refusal" (not "but one refusal")
17 hrs
Not sure I understand your comment, cc...
Something went wrong...
-1
4 hrs

Death is the only beggar who is rejected no more than once

Hello,

Perhaps the idea is that death cannot be rejected more than once, since a person can only die one time.

I hope this helps.
Peer comment(s):
disagree cc in nyc : I don't think the sesnse is "only rejected" (not "rejected... once").
16 hrs
I wasn't reading it right. It probably means "who will only be met with refusal", as no one wants to die. I guess, but I'm still not sure sure. But that seems to make more sense. You'd have to understand the context to really grasp the meaning, of course.
Something went wrong...
9 hrs

death is the only beggar that will be refused

A more literal translation of "qui n'aura qu'un refus" would be "who will have only a refusal." But the repetition of "only" would be unfortunate in this line of poetry. I suppose it might be "death is the sole beggar who will have only a refusal" but it still sounds a bit stilted. So I cut (OMG!) the second "only."

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Note added at 9 hrs (2010-11-23 04:05:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or "death is the only beggar to be refused"

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Note added at 9 hrs (2010-11-23 04:08:50 GMT)
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I just read some of the other entries... I'm not a native Francophone, but this doesn't sound like cake to me. see http://books.google.com/books?id=Ncsi2kFqlv0C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA...
Something went wrong...
-1
10 hrs

Death is the only beggar one can turn down but once

Just another suggestion
Peer comment(s):
disagree cc in nyc : I don't think "once" is the idea here.
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
10 hrs
French term (edited): la mort est le seul mendiant qui n\'aura qu\'un refus

Death is the only beggar who will just be refused... '

'
or maybe
'...the single beggar who will only meet with refusal'?

in the sense of 'Don't try that, you'll only meet with failure'
(Translations for meaning not rhythm)
I looked up Alcippe to see who she was - many different mythological figures - and tried to find the rest of the poem...no luck in such a short time.
I would like to research when the poem was written and what was happening in Yourcenar's life - it seems to mean that she refuses death - the second line in the verse is very mysterious to me and I feel holds a key to her state of mind or heart at the time she was writing - death is the witness to her desperate metamorphosis, not being able to 'se saisir' - to pull herself together? - the recurring image of her searching desperately at the heart of things/of roses for something elusive- this is not the right time to die - without having achieved an answer or a state of being? how would this relate to the Alms of Alcippe?
It seems a very enjoyable pursuit - to translate this poetry.
Something went wrong...
-1
20 hrs

Death is that one beggar to be rejected once but not again

Close to Mathew-I chose reject as well. I put in the stress on one and once to compensate the English (maybe) with a poetic quality and because this singualrity of rejection seems so important to the writer. Death is rejected but you never get a second chance to reject him and reject him doesn't mean he retires. On the contrary, on the contrary...
Peer comment(s):
disagree cc in nyc : I don't see "not again" in the French. I also think "ne... qu'un refus" would be "only rejection"
20 mins
Oh yes! I DO see "not again" in the French! "Not again" with all the resonance that has in English is poetically close to ne..que as I understand it. Re. your very different reading-possible from the French, I agree, but what could "only reject" mean?
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

Death... /Is the one wayfarer to whom I would grant welcome

As one seeks perfume in the rose's bosom
Death, who finds me [thus] searching the very heart of things,
Is the [one] wayfarer to whom I would grant welcome.
or
Is the only wayfarer whom I would welcome.

Scans badly. Haven't done this for ages.

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Note added at 18 hrs (2010-11-23 12:41:47 GMT)
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This verse is confusing to me. Everything seems to point to the persona wanting death except the last word, "refus" - perhaps the thematic link between the two verses.
Your inclusion of the next verse seems to indicate avoidance of death is preferable. Is the poet vacillating?
I do not know the poem, but it is fascinating!

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Note added at 21 hrs (2010-11-23 15:44:13 GMT)
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Revised to read:
"Death...
Is the one wayfarer I would not welcome."
Peer comment(s):
disagree cc in nyc : Not "welcome" but "refusal"
18 hrs
Quite. "not welcome" would now fit.
Something went wrong...
+1
12 hrs

Death is the only beggar who will always meet with refusal

I don't think the "un refus" is meant in the sense of "one refusal" but rather in the sense of "always be refused". After all, I would imagine that many people don't go willing with the Grim Reaper.
This is a question of "feeling", as the French say, but it seems to me to be a more correct interpretation of the line.
(Now I shall sit back and wait to be shot down in flames...)

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Note added at 1 day4 hrs (2010-11-23 23:09:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, typo in the explanation. I meant"go willingly", of course.
Note from asker:
Yes I think this is the closest, especially from the context of the rest of the poem, which I recently read over in my English rendition.I actually prefer "only will meet with refusal". This was my original sense of the line, but for a while I couldn't make sense of it and I wondered if I was missing something idiomatic. I guess when one is translating one sometines gets very close to the work and can miss things that are clear from the context. In the poem she is allowing the "Sirens" to take a certain part of her spirit or soul in a kind of "vampire" motif - death is the only one who is refused, unlike the others. Thanks to eveyone for their help and fascinating discussion. - Lang
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch : Translating "un refus" as "one refusal" makes no sense as one can certainly escape death more than once.
4 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

16 hrs
Reference:

The next verse:

"Qu'elle aille, s'il le faut, demander aux sirènes
Mon coeur voluptueux aux flots abandonnés.
J'ai déjoué l'absoute et les funèbres thrènes;
Comme un nard répandu sur la gorge des Reines,
J'existe à tout jamais dans ce que j'ai donné."

I think this supports ACOZ' interpretation.




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Note added at 16 hrs (2010-11-23 11:09:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The Author is interested in everything and will willingly give of herself to everything but Death.
Reference:

http://pensamientosdeamor.org/2005/02/poeme-marguerite-yourcenar-les-charites.html

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