| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | The ethics of translating Panamanian incorporation documents Thread poster: Adrian MM. (X)
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| Taxation is necessary, excess translation is unfair | Apr 6, 2016 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
Slavery? You really believe that high rates of taxation are comparable to slavery? Do explain more. ... the fact is that you do not have to be that rich to be taxed in a way that makes you a slave to the state. .... You very much become a property of the state, as the state is entitled to take away whatever they like from you. You do accept that a modern state does need to pay for *some* services and facilities of public benefit (e.g. emergency services) and that general taxation is a reasonable method of raising the necessary money?
Absolutely. I completely believe in taxation and have been paying absolutely every penny due for 30 years.
What I am trying to explain is that, if we all enjoy the same services, we all should contribute to them in the same proportion. OK, conceded, with a minimum subsistance income (and I mean subsistance, not a salary that is lower than other people's but allows you to own top-notch mobiles for everyone in the family, three TV sets, and a new Playstation every couple of years, and a new car every five years, while you complain of how bad things go for you) under which no taxes are paid.
Progressive taxation effectively discourages people from working hard and being successful: no matter how hard they study and work, they will make the same net money as their neighbours who study and work half as hard. What good does it do to a country that hard-working people flee (or devote part of their money to crooks who help them cheat)? By applying the same tax level to everyone, people will feel free and encouraged to work harder and be successful, so more people produce more money for the wellbeing of all.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Personally, I consider such a comparison to be a hysterical over-reaction which tends to obscure any validity lying behind the points you make, and is an odious parallel to draw given the very real abuses suffered by those who were slaves in the past, and indeed are viewed as slaves in the modern day. A Spanish taxpayer is no more a slave than I am the King of Tonga, and to suggest such is both absurd and abhorrent.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but there are some hard facts on this matter, speaking of modern states:
- Every child is already born with an obligation to work for the state, but virtue of public debt (in which the newborn had no say, and which the newborn cannot refuse to pay).
- Citizens have no say in taxation levels (not even by means of electing a different political party, as all promise they will lower taxes and never do). If you refuse to pay, your property will be seized or the state can send gunned people to your home and take you to prison.
- Citizens have no say in the allocation of their taxes, and are never asked to vote on or give their opinion about projects or acquisition of debt by the state.
- Citizens have no say in whether the state should operate or offer services in a specific area. Policitians always occupy more and more spaces with expensive and inefficient services, while pushing private providers out of the market.
- Citizens cannot refuse to pay for public services and choose a cheaper private provider or insurance. If you want to go private, you have to pay both public and private and the state does not give a penny back.
- The average citizen works 6 months of the year to sustain a modern state.
All in all, the obligation to pay a debt already from birth, and the obligation to give up half of your working year to fund things you have no say in may not be slavery stricto sensu, but it does share some of its treats.
[Edited at 2016-04-06 18:02 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:10
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Thanks Charlie | Apr 6, 2016 |
I love Jess Philips' opening comment:
"David Cameron pays his taxes. What does he want, a round of applause?"
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:10
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
.... may not be slavery stricto sensu, but really feels like it at times.
I'm just guessing, but I don't think you know what slavery feels like.
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Tom in London wrote:
I'm just guessing, but I don't think you know what slavery feels like.
I have rephrased the sentence. No, I have never experienced slavery in the sense of being the property of another person, but as time goes by I have serious doubts that I am really a free individual and not the property of the Kingdom of Spain, for the reasons expressed above.
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Adrian MM. (X)
Local time: 20:10
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Enslaved to to the travails of translation | Apr 6, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
.... may not be slavery stricto sensu, but really feels like it at times. I'm just guessing, but I don't think you know what slavery feels like.
- which brings us back, in a roundabout fiscal way, to my original query: whether we, as freelancers and non-staff translators, should be enslaved to Panamanian-fuelled tax-avoidance or tax-evasive ambition.
In the words of a North London Solicitor: 'I'll work for any gangster, bandit or crook who pays my bill'.
[Edited at 2016-04-06 19:23 GMT]
| | | | | Different thing entirely | Apr 6, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Tom in London wrote:
I'm just guessing, but I don't think you know what slavery feels like. I have rephrased the sentence. No, I have never experienced slavery in the sense of being the property of another person, but as time goes by I have serious doubts that I am really a free individual and not the property of the Kingdom of Spain, for the reasons expressed above.
Again, that is more a philosophical issue about the social contract, and applies to more than just taxes. How really free are any of us? Nonetheless, slavery it certainly ain't.
Turning to the Tea Party-esque list of "facts" starting "Citizens have no say", they are all open to dispute and downright rejection. Pushing private providers out of the market is the precise opposite of what is happening here. And in the developing world - so the World Bank, for instance, refuses to fund infrastructure projects unless they are in private hands, nationalised provision being very much frowned upon, hence their generous denial of drinking water to the inhabitants of Madagascar, unless the French water companies are allowed to run it. The French water companies being run by the kind of socially aware chaps who like to salt their wealth away in places like Panama.
The only valid point you make is that of individuals who perhaps pay taxes towards services they do not receive, as they can afford private provision (health, education). That said, one of the points made against our own dear Prime Minister, which counters your argument, was that said dear PM's school fees were paid by a father who made strenuous efforts NOT to pay UK taxes, so even that point doesn't apply universally.
And even if it were true, given the social and financial cost the rest of us pay when taxes are avoided or evaded, does that justify said evasion or avoidance? Has it not occurred to you that IF everyone paid exactly what they are asked to, perhaps all of us would pay a little bit less, and you'd feel a bit less like a slave?
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Charlie Bavington wrote:
And even if it were true, given the social and financial cost the rest of us pay when taxes are avoided or evaded, does that justify said evasion or avoidance? Has it not occurred to you that IF everyone paid exactly what they are asked to, perhaps all of us would pay a little bit less, and you'd feel a bit less like a slave?
I think I have already said that I have paid every penny due (and sometimes also money extorted from me with very doubtful interpretations of the mastodontic Spanish tax law) for over 30 years. Of course I think that we all should pay and that would reduce tax levels. What I dispute is the right of governments to raise our taxes for endeavours and commitments we have no say in, and the obligation of hard-working people to cover up for the masters of the siesta.
Also, the more money we pour onto the governments' hands, the faster they spend and increase debt. In Spain, we pay today more taxes than ever, but owe more than ever! It is a true mistery to me that governments never think of sticking to the actual funds available. They always want more!
| | | | | Inconsistent? | Apr 6, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Of course I think that we all should pay and that would reduce tax levels.
Jolly good. But yesterday, in the early stages of the thread, when the general topic was still how ethical it is to translate Panamanian incorporation documents, you said...
The insane tax levels paid by people with high income means that the government makes more money than tax payers, effectively making them slaves of the State. Trying to escape slavery is something I can understand. One human right that was forgotten but should definitely be included is the right not to be enslaved by means of excessive taxes.
....and I'm afraid my interpretation of that, in the context of this thread, is that hiding money in tax havens is acceptable because the tax burden is excessive (and spent on the wrong things!).
So after all this discussion, assuming the reason for the translation was some perfectly legal business arrangement with the aim of avoiding payment of taxes in, say, Spain, would you translate the document or not?
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| Most probably not | Apr 6, 2016 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
So after all this discussion, assuming the reason for the translation was some perfectly legal business arrangement with the aim of avoiding payment of taxes in, say, Spain, would you translate the document or not?
Well, I pay all my taxes to the very last penny, so I would hardly help others cheat. However, I can understand that some people get desperate and try odd things when confronted with unreasonably high taxes while their neighbours enjoy the same expensive services with very little effort.
| | | | Jo Macdonald 
Spain
Local time: 20:10
Italian to English
+ ...
I'm sorry Tomas but imo some of the things you say and declare to be "facts" are just not true.
One example
"but there are some hard facts on this matter, speaking of modern states:
- Every child is already born with an obligation to work for the state, but virtue of public debt (in which the newborn had no say, and which the newborn cannot refuse to pay)."
I was born in the UK where I both contributed to the system and received an education, health care and... See more I'm sorry Tomas but imo some of the things you say and declare to be "facts" are just not true.
One example
"but there are some hard facts on this matter, speaking of modern states:
- Every child is already born with an obligation to work for the state, but virtue of public debt (in which the newborn had no say, and which the newborn cannot refuse to pay)."
I was born in the UK where I both contributed to the system and received an education, health care and unemployment benefit for a while. When I was about 21 I moved to Italy where I contributed to the state and received health care, but no British authorities came after me because I had to pay the UK debt for the rest of my life. After 20 years of living in Italy I move to Spain, I pay tax here and get health care. No Italians coming after me demanding I pay their national debt though.
One of the reasons I moved to Spain was the imo grossly unfair tax system in Italy, but despite the poor financial administration of the Italian state I was free to move and no longer be a part of that system.
I am not a slave to any of these states and I am certainly not owned by them.
I feel I am fairly free to choose where I live and I think's it's pretty reasonable for the Spanish government to require I pay tax here if I choose to live in Spain, dive on Spanish roads, go to Spanish hospitals, call Spanish police if I get into trouble, the list goes on.
Back on topic I personally would decide whether or not I thought translating offshore documents was right or wrong in the first place before doing the job (or thousands of jobs).
What has changed now the whistle has been blown?
Was it right to help tax evasion as long as it remained hidden, but now it's been made public it's suddenly wrong? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You are hardly the rule | Apr 7, 2016 |
Jo Macdonald wrote: Tomás wrote:
- Every child is already born with an obligation to work for the state, but virtue of public debt (in which the newborn had no say, and which the newborn cannot refuse to pay)." I was born in the UK where I both contributed to the system and received an education, health care and unemployment benefit for a while. When I was about 21 I moved to Italy where I contributed to the state and received health care, but no British authorities came after me because I had to pay the UK debt for the rest of my life. After 20 years of living in Italy I move to Spain, I pay tax here and get health care. No Italians coming after me demanding I pay their national debt though.
I guess it is safe to say that people whose education allows them to work abroad are an exception? Of the 30 million British workers, how many have a chance to leave and work in another country whenever they wish? In any case, about 20% of the money you paid in Italy and you are paying in Spain is spent on paying back debt in which you had no say. And the same will happen wherever you go in the world. Thus, you are effectively born with a debt you have to/are paying.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:10
French to English
| getting somewhere | Apr 7, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
- Citizens have no say in the allocation of their taxes, and are never asked to vote on or give their opinion about projects or acquisition of debt by the state.
the day we can vote for what we spend money on rather than for the idiot who's going to spend our money, we will achieve true democracy
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:10
French to English
| wherever you go in the world?? | Apr 7, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
In any case, about 20% of the money you paid in Italy and you are paying in Spain is spent on paying back debt in which you had no say. And the same will happen wherever you go in the world. Thus, you are effectively born with a debt you have to/are paying.
are there no countries without debt to pay off?
WHO do they owe this money too?
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:10
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Adrian MM. wrote:
In the words of a North London Solicitor: 'I'll work for any gangster, bandit or crook who pays my bill'.
That's a disreputable North London Solicitor who would think nothing of lying to you about your tax responsibilities and would probably convince you to join one of his Ponzi schemes.
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