Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
Programme de Développement Rural Hexagonal
English translation:
Rural Development Programme in mainland France
Added to glossary by
Tony M
May 1, 2013 09:36
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
France
Accuracy & timeliness
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, Spanish to French, French
Programme de Développement Rural Hexagonal
French to English
Other
Environment & Ecology
Le Programme de Développement Rural Hexagonal - PDRH
Le Programme de Développement Rural Hexagonal (PDRH) de la France pour la période 2007-2013 décline la stratégie qui est mise en œuvre au titre du fonds européen de développement rural (FEADER). Sa 7ème version a été approuvée par la Commission Européenne le 3 mai 2012.
Comment traduiriez-vous le terme "PDRH"?
Le laisser en français puis mettre une note de bas de page expliquant ce dispositif ?
Le Programme de Développement Rural Hexagonal (PDRH) de la France pour la période 2007-2013 décline la stratégie qui est mise en œuvre au titre du fonds européen de développement rural (FEADER). Sa 7ème version a été approuvée par la Commission Européenne le 3 mai 2012.
Comment traduiriez-vous le terme "PDRH"?
Le laisser en français puis mettre une note de bas de page expliquant ce dispositif ?
Proposed translations
(English)
References
| All the same.. |
Jane Proctor (X)
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Change log
May 19, 2013 07:21: Tony M Created KOG entry
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
Non-PRO (1): Jane Proctor (X)
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Proposed translations
+3
21 mins
Selected
Rural Development Programme for France
Unless it is necessary to emphasize the French one (rather than the German one...), then I'd prefer to express it like this, putting the France at the end.
But as has already been said, since the acronym may well recur in your document, I'd recommend keeping the FR in brackets the first time it occurs and adding the explanation in EN, thus allowing you to keep the original acronym thereafter.
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Note added at 53 mins (2013-05-01 10:30:30 GMT)
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Asker, it really does all depend on the context in which this is being used, as to the emphasis / slant you might need to place on this.
For example, if it is vital to make a clear distinction between this particular PDR and the others, then you might equally well say 'Rural Development Programme for mainland France', to address the objection by Daryo.
However, I still think it is more natural style in EN to refer to the country whose rural is to be developed, rather than to the nationality of the plan.
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-05-01 11:25:19 GMT)
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I think adding 'mainland' as I've suggested satisfactorily addresses the point made by Daryo, if the context is such that this has any significance; I think we have to tread very carefully with the cultural issues here. A French-speaker will quite casually mention « l'Hexagon », and everyone will know they mean 'mainland France'; likewise, in an EN context, if an English-speaker says 'France', everyone listening will understand 'mainland France' — most people being unaware that there even exists any 'France' that isn't 'mainland'! The whole point here is: does the difference matter in this specific context? So I come back to what I said to Asker earlier: it all depends on the wider context of your document.
In all events, I would strongly avoid any use of 'hexagon' in the EN translation, as it is only likely to puzzle and/or confuse readers — at best, it will appear in the FR original text, if you decide to retain that with an accompanying explanation — which I personally feel is the best solution here.
But as has already been said, since the acronym may well recur in your document, I'd recommend keeping the FR in brackets the first time it occurs and adding the explanation in EN, thus allowing you to keep the original acronym thereafter.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 53 mins (2013-05-01 10:30:30 GMT)
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Asker, it really does all depend on the context in which this is being used, as to the emphasis / slant you might need to place on this.
For example, if it is vital to make a clear distinction between this particular PDR and the others, then you might equally well say 'Rural Development Programme for mainland France', to address the objection by Daryo.
However, I still think it is more natural style in EN to refer to the country whose rural is to be developed, rather than to the nationality of the plan.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-05-01 11:25:19 GMT)
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I think adding 'mainland' as I've suggested satisfactorily addresses the point made by Daryo, if the context is such that this has any significance; I think we have to tread very carefully with the cultural issues here. A French-speaker will quite casually mention « l'Hexagon », and everyone will know they mean 'mainland France'; likewise, in an EN context, if an English-speaker says 'France', everyone listening will understand 'mainland France' — most people being unaware that there even exists any 'France' that isn't 'mainland'! The whole point here is: does the difference matter in this specific context? So I come back to what I said to Asker earlier: it all depends on the wider context of your document.
In all events, I would strongly avoid any use of 'hexagon' in the EN translation, as it is only likely to puzzle and/or confuse readers — at best, it will appear in the FR original text, if you decide to retain that with an accompanying explanation — which I personally feel is the best solution here.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Zoe Beal
3 mins
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Thanks, Zoe!
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| disagree |
Daryo
: that would include at least Corsica (and possibly also TOM-DOMs)// Corsica is not included and that is implied by "Hexagonal" - if it was important enough to be underlined by the choice of terms used in the title, it can't be ignored.
6 mins
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I think the vast majority of EN readers would be unaware of that nicety, so wouldn't draw undue attention to it, UNLESS the document specifically highlights the difference from DOM/TOM / a precise meaning to a FR-speaker, but meaningless/puzzling to an EN
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| agree |
Philippa Smith
: Yes. And, unless the acronym crops up loads, I'd leave it out altogether and just use the English each time.
13 mins
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Thanks, Philippa! Yes, probably sound advice
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| agree |
Zsuzsanna Dr Sassiné Riffer
: A few EU sources do use this translation as well. e.g. http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/eval/reports/lfa/full_annex_... http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/c...
29 mins
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Thanks, Zsuzsanna!
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| neutral |
chris collister
: With Daryo, perhaps "mainland France" would be more accurate//So you did, apologies - But I don't think it was there when I commented...
1 hr
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Thanks, Chris! Yes, exactly as I suggested (depending on context) in my added note.
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| neutral |
John ANTHONY
: Tony, the document actually refers strictly to France mainland, excluding Corsica... See my discussion entry. :-)
1 hr
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No problem John; as I have already said, IF that difference matters, then it is easy enough to add 'mainland' to solve the problem.
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| agree |
EirTranslations
1 hr
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¡Muchas gracias, Beatriz!
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| neutral |
writeaway
: for France sounds like an outside force at work. In France (since it's the national application of an EU thingy in any case)
1 hr
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Thanks, W/A! Yup '...in France' would be better!
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| neutral |
nweatherdon
: why not keep the "hexagonal" and include a 1-2 sentence translators note to explain what it means?
4 hrs
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Because 'hexagon' is instantly meaningful to a FR person, but totally meaningless to an EN person, so represents an unhelpful encumbrance, EXCEPT in the FR text as part of the explanation. / And 'hexagonal' would be the wrong adj. to use in EN anyway.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
7 mins
nweatherdon
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Canada
Economics, finance and biosciences
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, English to French, Spanish to English, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Hexagonal Rural Development Programme
for example, at http://www.asp-public.fr/pages-satellites/2nd-pillar-cap-rur... and http://www.ade.eu/dev_rural.php.
From an online search of the string of text, it seems as though this is a fairly established translation.
From an online search of the string of text, it seems as though this is a fairly established translation.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: Aside from the fact that 'l'Hexagone' is little-known outside France, I don't think it would be best used as an adjective like this in EN anyway; we'd say 'Paris underground' (not 'Parisian')
9 mins
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| disagree |
Alan Douglas (X)
: Because any English speaking person who has never been exposed to French language & culture will not undersand the reference. "Hexagonal" will be taken literally as a 6-sided geometric form that can be inscribed inside a circle, not as "France".
1 hr
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fair enough, but if it's a French programme then why not use a name that is consistent with its Frenchness?
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| neutral |
Daryo
: you need to make it easier to understand leave "Hexagonal" for Frenchness, but add a translation for it
22 hrs
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| agree |
torjman
: Sounds good
2 days 10 hrs
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-2
26 mins
Mainland France ("Hexagonal") Rural Development Programme
I would leave Hexagonal to make it easier to pair the FR and EN versions of documents.
"Le programme de développement rural "hexagonal" (PDRH) couvre l'ensemble du territoire métropolitain hors Corse. Il se compose d'un socle commun de ..."
[http://agriculture.gouv.fr/le-programme-de-developpement,106...]
"Le programme de développement rural "hexagonal" (PDRH) couvre l'ensemble du territoire métropolitain hors Corse. Il se compose d'un socle commun de ..."
[http://agriculture.gouv.fr/le-programme-de-developpement,106...]
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
chris collister
: I doubt whether more than 0.1% of anglophone readers would have a clue what "hexagonal" meant. Leave it out.
26 mins
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Put yourself in the skin of the end-user dealing with bundles of documents in EN and FR - what would you prefer?
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| disagree |
Zsuzsanna Dr Sassiné Riffer
: I feel this version makes the whole issue overly complicated. Unnecessary to include both mainland France and Hexagonal. KISS principle (keep it short and simple).
32 mins
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"Unnecessary to include both mainland France and Hexagonal."? Confronted with a very confusing term better just ignore it instead of making it less puzzling? not my method. KISS is a good method within limits!
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| neutral |
Tony M
: And 'hexagonal' in EN means 'hexagon-shaped', whereas in FR it means 'belonging to the Hexagon' — a 'hexagonal programme' would sound silly, and could arguably suggest it was in some way hexapartite
33 mins
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the point of leaving "Hexagonal" within quotes, clearly indicating 'not to be taken literally' is to help comparison with the FR version – why make life difficult for the end-user?
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| disagree |
Alan Douglas (X)
: I completely agree with rifferzsuzsanna.
1 hr
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and I strongly disagree: KISS (a very good principle in the right dosage) is not a licence to oversimplify to the point of ignoring the meaning of the ST / in this kind of documents "à peu près" is simply not admissible - it's not informal chit-chat.
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-1
45 mins
Zsuzsanna Dr Sassiné Riffer
Hungary
Hungary
Hungary
Translation: profession and passion
Native in: Hungarian
Works in: English to Hungarian, Hungarian to English, French to Hungarian
French Rural Development Programme
I found hits both for Hexagonal and French Rural Development Programme.
French...
http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/eval/reports/promotion/fullt...
Hexagonal...
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?mode=dbl&lng1=en,fr&lang=...
Here with an explanaintion of what 'hexagonal' refers to:
France has developed six Rural Development Programmes (RDPs) for 2007-2013: one for the ‘hexagon’ (Metropolitan France) excluding Corsica, the Hexagonal Rural Development Programme (PDRH); one for Corsica, and one for each overseas ‘département’. The PDRH
http://www.eurosugar.org/en/employabilite81.php?id=7
I would either use 'hexagonal' with a short explanation as above, or I would go for French because it is more straightforward (hexagonal does not necessarily ring a bell outside of France). Weigh these options in light of the context and the target readership.
If the text decribes and differentiates different rural development programmes that France developed, I would suggest 'hexagonal' (with explanation). Otherwise, I would stick to French. Whichever you opt for, including the French acronym in parantheses (or the acronym and/or even the full French name) is recommended.
French...
http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/eval/reports/promotion/fullt...
Hexagonal...
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?mode=dbl&lng1=en,fr&lang=...
Here with an explanaintion of what 'hexagonal' refers to:
France has developed six Rural Development Programmes (RDPs) for 2007-2013: one for the ‘hexagon’ (Metropolitan France) excluding Corsica, the Hexagonal Rural Development Programme (PDRH); one for Corsica, and one for each overseas ‘département’. The PDRH
http://www.eurosugar.org/en/employabilite81.php?id=7
I would either use 'hexagonal' with a short explanation as above, or I would go for French because it is more straightforward (hexagonal does not necessarily ring a bell outside of France). Weigh these options in light of the context and the target readership.
If the text decribes and differentiates different rural development programmes that France developed, I would suggest 'hexagonal' (with explanation). Otherwise, I would stick to French. Whichever you opt for, including the French acronym in parantheses (or the acronym and/or even the full French name) is recommended.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: Agree in general, though I think this runs even greater risk of the confusion that worries Daryo: one might conceivably have a French 'something' programme for something outside (what people normally understand as) France.
5 mins
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fair enough
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| disagree |
Daryo
: French = Hexagone + Corsica; not what's in the ST. When shifting around truckloads of money in regional programs, it's a bit more than just a detail./ No one put "Hexagonal " in the title just for the sake of confusing readers, it's got a precise meaning!
37 mins
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Disagree. The context, the target readership and the purpose of the text also matter.
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Reference comments
12 mins
Reference:
All the same..
The majority of pple outside of France don't have a clue what "Hexagonal" means.. other than a shape they learnt at school. Use "French".
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Philippa Smith
24 mins
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| agree |
Tony M
26 mins
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| agree |
Zsuzsanna Dr Sassiné Riffer
34 mins
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| disagree |
Daryo
: it's not the same in this ST; the majority would intuitively understand "mainland France"; ignoring a difficulty is not solving it.
1 hr
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"All the same" meaning "however/careful" NOT "it all means the same"!!
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Discussion
I think your call for precision is of course right, but you do need to look at it from the point of view of an EN reader, rather than with Gallic preciousness towards a cute but colloquial FR term — it would be like my insisting on the importance of retaining the term 'The Smoke' to refer to London: instantly meaningful to anyone from GB, but totally meaningless to the rest of the world.
It seems to me that John's solution of adding 'mainland' to 'France' solves the problem satisfactorily; I see no justification whatsoever for using the EN adjective 'hexagonal', which is simply misleading and syntactically debatable. If we use 'in France' as W/A has suggested, it would then be feasible to add ('the Hexagon') afterwards in order to satisfy FR linguistic sensibilities in a way that remains grammatically acceptable in EN.
France always includes Corsica, so in this ST "France" is not good enough. KISS but not to the point of getting it wrong!
www.agriculture.gouv.fr says it all !