Poll: Have you submitted an entry in the current ProZ. com Translation contest? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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This forum topic is for the discussion of the poll question "Have you submitted an entry in the current ProZ. com Translation contest?".
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As I've already said several times and at the risk of repeating myself, I was rather keen on these contests, took part in several between 2008 and 2014 and won a few. By then, I considered these contests both entertaining and challenging, but after a while, I felt that they were very poorly designed. One of the flaws is that each competitor is allowed to judge the other competitors. Are we really so impartial to be fair to other people’s entries?
I can only imagine the difficulty... See more As I've already said several times and at the risk of repeating myself, I was rather keen on these contests, took part in several between 2008 and 2014 and won a few. By then, I considered these contests both entertaining and challenging, but after a while, I felt that they were very poorly designed. One of the flaws is that each competitor is allowed to judge the other competitors. Are we really so impartial to be fair to other people’s entries?
I can only imagine the difficulty of running a contest for all possible language pairs, but as an active paying member I am entitled to expect from the organizers a more caring, cooperative and respectful attitude towards my complains about the poor organisation of these contests instead of a deafening silence... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 23:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
One of the flaws is that each competitor is allowed to judge the other competitors.
Actually, it makes more sense for competitors to judge other competitors' work than for non-competitors to do so. Competitors have struggled with the text themselves, so the know what the difficult parts are and what the easy parts are, and what works and what doesn't work. Non-competitors don't have this advantage -- they don't examine the text as closely as competitors did, so they tend to judge based on other criteria (e.g. how well the translation sounds) that have nothing to do with the skill of the translator.
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The English text had just one pun ("get out of town") that made it difficult to translate. I didn't publish my translation because my pair was members only (while the majority of other pairs from English were not). None of the translations I've read managed to do justice to the pun, haha. So, my translation was better, but no one will ever read it because it only exists in my head
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 23:48
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
Actually, it makes more sense for competitors to judge other competitors' work than for non-competitors to do so. Competitors have struggled with the text themselves, so the know what the difficult parts are and what the easy parts are, and what works and what doesn't work.
I suppose someone who judges a contest translation could be considered as a reviewer/editor. Are you saying that a reviewer doesn't really know what the "difficult and easy parts" in a text are? I would think that if someone takes the effort to judge a translation he or she at least performs a decent review of said translation.
Samuel Murray wrote:
Non-competitors don't have this advantage -- they don't examine the text as closely as competitors did, so they tend to judge based on other criteria (e.g. how well the translation sounds) that have nothing to do with the skill of the translator.
Wouldn't you think that "how well a translation sounds" should be included in the skill set of a translator? Even an accurate translation can be bad.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 23:48
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Noooo - Participating is just like playing roulette | Jun 19 |
Adding to the flaws mentioned by Maria Teresa, the contest rules actually don't allow participants to know how and when an entry wins.
Last year I challenged myself and submitted 7 (seven) entries to see what happens. 3 or 4 of my entries got the most points but did not win "for reasons".
When asked how they calculate winners, the ProZ staff came up with some abstract explanations, but the point is: the system must be transparently stated in the CONTEST RULES (where it reads: "The ... See more Adding to the flaws mentioned by Maria Teresa, the contest rules actually don't allow participants to know how and when an entry wins.
Last year I challenged myself and submitted 7 (seven) entries to see what happens. 3 or 4 of my entries got the most points but did not win "for reasons".
When asked how they calculate winners, the ProZ staff came up with some abstract explanations, but the point is: the system must be transparently stated in the CONTEST RULES (where it reads: "The entry that collects the most points in final round voting, wins", but this is not true).
What does it cost to do make those rules transparent and comprehensible? I think the participant's efforts deserve this at least.
Making the contest transparent and fair is another thing we've been waiting for at least since 10 years now.
See here https://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translation_contests/364237-contests_congratulations_to_winners_in_"a_translators_life"-page3.html#3016555
And this discussion: https://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translation_contests/364369-non_transparent_contest_rules_and_illogical_winner_determination-page3.html ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:48
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote: Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
One of the flaws is that each competitor is allowed to judge the other competitors. Actually, it makes more sense for competitors to judge other competitors' work than for non-competitors to do so. Competitors have struggled with the text themselves, so the know what the difficult parts are and what the easy parts are, and what works and what doesn't work. Non-competitors don't have this advantage -- they don't examine the text as closely as competitors did, so they tend to judge based on other criteria (e.g. how well the translation sounds) that have nothing to do with the skill of the translator.
1) Have you ever heard of conflict of interest? A huge problem.
2) Contestants get an excerpt. In order for them to be familiar with the text to the extent you are describing, they should read the entire book/piece. One’s translation of an excerpt will be much better and much more clear if they had read (and understood well) the entire book.
Now, on-topic: No, I have not and will not. I think topics (or polls?) with this same question have been published at least ten times so far. Must be a highly important question if it’s reapetedly and regularly asked.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Lieven Malaise wrote:
Are you saying that a reviewer doesn't really know what the "difficult and easy parts" in a text are?
I'm saying that most of them won't, no. As a translator I'm sure you're aware that the worst difficulties with a text are often discovered not when you simply read through it but when you actually try to translate it.
Lingua 5B wrote:
Have you ever heard of conflict of interest?
If conflict of interest applied here, then it would also apply to having one's translation checked by another translator during the course of business. Yet clients do this all the time: they ask a translator to check another translator's work. No-one cries "conflict of interest" in such cases.
I agree that the first round of elimination is flawed. In this round, entries are eliminated based on how many negative marks they get. A malicious contestant would identify a text that has a high likelihood of beating their entry, and then proceed to nitpick the heck out of it. Still, I wouldn't call this "conflict of interest".
The second round of elimination is fairer: giving a high or a low score to another translator's translation does not affect the score of your own translation.
[Edited at 2024-06-19 09:24 GMT]
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My question is: is it possible to be both judge and party in a contest? I doubt it…
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:48
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
My question is: is it possible to be both judge and party in a contest? I doubt it…
No, because there is a natural bias and conflict of interest.
It could be as a practice and game, but not an official contest with a winners' badge. Also, one could get a bunch of friends and relatives to vote for them.
Right now, we have Euro 2024 and Olympics coming up. Imagine athletes competing also being judges, referees, etc. at the same time. It would result in a messy chaos.
[Edited at 2024-06-19 09:24 GMT]
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 23:48
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
As a translator I'm sure you're aware that the worst difficulties with a text are often discovered not when you simply read through it but when you actually try to translate it.
Or if you review a translation properly, like you should do if you want to judge someone else's work. I've never participated in a contest or judged contest translations, but if I would consider it, then I would most definitely review said translation line by line to be able to discover the slightest error.
If people don't do that, then those constests are utterly useless (which is kind of in line with my opinion about them).
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:48
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| You are confusing things | Jun 19 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Lieven Malaise wrote:
Are you saying that a reviewer doesn't really know what the "difficult and easy parts" in a text are? I'm saying that most of them won't, no. As a translator I'm sure you're aware that the worst difficulties with a text are often discovered not when you simply read through it but when you actually try to translate it. Lingua 5B wrote:
Have you ever heard of conflict of interest? If conflict of interest applied here, then it would also apply to having one's translation checked by another translator during the course of business. Yet clients do this all the time: they ask a translator to check another translator's work. No-one cries "conflict of interest" in such cases.
Yes, but this is not "the course of business", this is a contest with a public badge open to various sorts of manipulation. Also, the situation you describe is not parallel or the same. The reviewer in translation tests is not a participant in translation test at the same time, their role is just to review (yes, they do it unskillfully and with a lot of bias), and it's not comparable to being a contestant and reviewer at the same time.
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There is no conflict of interest when one person translates a text and another person reviews it. There is certainly a conflict of interest when the same person takes part in a contest both as a translator and as a reviewer rating the translations of other fellow contestants in the same contest.
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