| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13] > | 对于“turned down",是不是这样翻译最符合原文？ Thread poster: Kemp9
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Kemp9
China
Local time: 01:37
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
谢谢！不过那样翻译，似乎比原文多了好多个词，我觉得应该直接译为”用于生存的大脑“。
看profile，阁下是native English speaker，不知看得懂中文繁体否？我特意转成简体了，有时候转来转去，没注意是简体还是繁体。
Phil Hand wrote: 新来的朋友，欢迎！但是，建议你在发帖子之前，先“仔细看”，自己多琢磨几下。 wherestip 的版本很好，但你提出来的问题其实很有意思。英文很喜欢这种缩短的照应（如：the ugly man who punched me...the ugly man...he，都指代同一个对象，但变得越来越短），跟中文的语言习惯不同。 这个实例是一种很极端的缩短照应。下面的两段： Scientists have done experiments on the standard mammalian brain and found that it is not built for happiness. It functions so that, as neurologist Melvin Konner explains, “the organism’s chronic internal state will be a vague mixture of anxiety and desire—best described by the phrase ‘I want,’ spoken with or without an object for the verb.” Surely you are familiar with that brain, having seen it up close and personal, always twitching with dissatisfaction, never at peace.
It could be that nature is simply not selecting for happiness in mammals because it isn’t useful for survival. At those times when you are feeling happy you won’t be on the alert for trouble and therefore your life will be in jeopardy. The anxious people turn out to be the lucky ones, likely to live a long life. Sure, it will be unhappy, but at least it will be long. 被缩成： the survival brain 怎么处理呢？直接用英文的方法好像不行：生存的脑袋谁看得懂？所以要加更多信息，让它清晰的连接到前面的两段。用词要一致，也要准确地反映前两段的精神。 “经优胜劣汰的考验，为生存一直挣扎的人类大脑”？
| | | | Kemp9
China
Local time: 01:37
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | 不知各位能否翻译，特别是出版这些书籍？ | Sep 16, 2013 |
我是直接对这些题材有兴趣，不知你对这些书有兴趣没？——
Supernormal: Science, Yoga, and the Evidence for Extraordinary Psychic Abilities
该书作者的第一本书已经翻译好了，但是在CHINA MAINLAND较难出版。我上面列出的是作者的第三本书，没翻译的，还有他的第二本也没翻译，都是跟这些题材有关，而且是通过具体的科学实验去验证的。另外还有一本书，另外一个作者写的... See more 我是直接对这些题材有兴趣，不知你对这些书有兴趣没？——
Supernormal: Science, Yoga, and the Evidence for Extraordinary Psychic Abilities
该书作者的第一本书已经翻译好了，但是在CHINA MAINLAND较难出版。我上面列出的是作者的第三本书，没翻译的，还有他的第二本也没翻译，都是跟这些题材有关，而且是通过具体的科学实验去验证的。另外还有一本书，另外一个作者写的——
Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives
也是相关题材。
我看论坛上阁下跟其他几位对这些题材有兴趣，不知各位能否翻译，特别是出版这些书籍？
Phil Hand wrote:
这样让脑子少为生存挣扎，让自我少沉迷于自己的偏好。
我对这种题材很有兴趣，因为英美民间的心理学概念与中国普遍承认的心理学概念不同，所以把原意转过来很难。是个很有意义的翻译练习！ ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ying Wang 
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to Chinese
+ ...
wherestip wrote:
Phil 意思是对的。
唯此为生存搏斗的意识才能淡漠，突出自我的炽热才能冷却。
译得妙！
| | | | Rita Pang
Canada
Local time: 13:37
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Moderator of this forum | Right on the ball again, Steve | Sep 17, 2013 |
wherestip wrote: Kemp9 wrote: 应该是：幸存的大腦。 因为"survival brain" (幸存的大腦) means the brain without "I" and "self". 这样才符合原文。 wherestip wrote: Phil Hand wrote: Kemp9 wrote:
> Only then is the survival brain turned down and the personality fever cooled.
请问特别对于“turned down”及相关地方，可不可以意译为？——只有这样以后用以生存的大脑才会清净安定下来。
对于“turned down",是不是这样翻译最符合原文？
turn down = 降低音量 survival brain = 致力于自我生存的大脑 personality fever = 沉迷于自我 只有这样才能削弱大脑中对生存的蠢蠢欲动和对自我的独特感。 Phil 意思是对的。 唯此为生存搏斗的意识才能淡漠，突出自我的炽热才能冷却。 Survival has nothing to do with whether one is fortunate or not.
As said, yowza.
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Li Jie
China
Local time: 01:37
English to Chinese
就我对佛教的皮毛认识，“True happiness can only be found by eliminating the false idea of ‘I’ or ‘self.’Only then is the survival brain turned down and the personality fever cooled. ” 应该是说：要消除妄念“我”才能获得真正的快乐。唯有达到“无我”的境界，心才能清静，才能放下“我执”。survival brain 在中文中，我觉得应该指摒除“我”这个意念后（与世）不争的“心”。因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。我对 personality fever 的理解与 phil 相同，只是“我执”更符合佛教术语。
[修改时间: 2013-09-25 15:13 GMT]
| | | | Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 01:37
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 从佛教教义上讲，我赞成你这种理解 | Sep 25, 2013 |
Li Jie wrote:
就我对佛教的皮毛认识，“True happiness can only be found by eliminating the false idea of ‘I’ or ‘self.’Only then is the survival brain turned down and the personality fever cooled. ” 应该是说：要消除妄念“我”才能获得真正的快乐。唯有达到“无我”的境界，心才能清静，才能破除“我执”。survival brain 在中文中，我觉得应该指摒除“我”这个意念后的“心”。因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。我对 personality fever 的理解与 phil 相同，只是“我执”更符合佛教术语。
就是摒除对于“我”的错误观念后剩下的认识，才是正见。
不过，就原文来看，作者似乎是另一种意思。
[Edited at 2013-09-25 09:17 GMT]
| | | | Li Jie
China
Local time: 01:37
English to Chinese
不过，就原文来看，作者似乎是另一种意思。
[Edited at 2013-09-25 09:17 GMT]
我没有看原文链接内容，因为太多，我一下搜不到相应章节。不过从“The only problem with that formulation is that once the “I” or “self ” has been eliminated, then there is no one around to enjoy the feeling of happiness. ”也可以看出作者的态度：既然连“我”都可以没有，那么享受快乐的主体可以不存在，那还要快乐做什么？这其实是对“无我”的误读，“无我”是指别把自己看得太要紧，就不会有“贪嗔痴”这些不好的东西。
[修改时间: 2013-09-25 23:39 GMT]
| | | | QHE
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to Chinese
+ ...
This is THE WOOD for the trees!
wherestip wrote:
唯此为生存搏斗的意识才能淡漠，突出自我的炽热才能冷却。
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Li Jie wrote:
就我对佛教的皮毛认识，“True happiness can only be found by eliminating the false idea of ‘I’ or ‘self.’Only then is the survival brain turned down and the personality fever cooled. ” 应该是说：要消除妄念“我”才能获得真正的快乐。唯有达到“无我”的境界，心才能清静，才能放下“我执”。survival brain 在中文中，我觉得应该指摒除“我”这个意念后（与世）不争的“心”。因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。我对 personality fever 的理解与 phil 相同，只是“我执”更符合佛教术语。
[修改时间: 2013-09-25 15:13 GMT]
Li Jie的理解和表达看似有些‘无理’，抑或‘错位’，其实可以接受，甚至是值得赞赏的！因为它符合翻译过程对应的层次。一直以来，文学翻译之难，在于寻求译文“信、达、雅”的目标实属不易，而‘错位’对应正是达到这一标准的有效手段。不妨再回顾大家熟知的一个例子：
英文：How are you?
中文：你吃的没有？（在中国大陆，曾几何时，熟人之间见面极少有人说出“你好！”之类的日常问候语）
个人以为，翻译对应的考虑不仅有用词的语境、还有文化层次的差异，还可能考察原文所处的时代大背景。如能适时巧妙运用这样的思维转换方式，‘信’的译文自然有机会‘达’，最终通向‘雅’的翻译境界~
| | | | QHE
United States
Local time: 13:37
English to Chinese
+ ...
| context first | Sep 27, 2013 |
Li Jie wrote:
因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。
说得不错，但是你忽略了一个最重要的东西：你没有看原文，而且断言 “原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain”
请看一下 Phil 根据原文对survival brain的理解及J.H. Wang提供的原文(链接)。
Phil Hand wrote: wherestip 的版本很好，但你提出来的问题其实很有意思。英文很喜欢这种缩短的照应（如：the ugly man who punched me...the ugly man...he，都指代同一个对象，但变得越来越短），跟中文的语言习惯不同。 这个实例是一种很极端的缩短照应。下面的两段： Scientists have done experiments on the standard mammalian brain and found that it is not built for happiness. It functions so that, as neurologist Melvin Konner explains, “the organism’s chronic internal state will be a vague mixture of anxiety and desire—best described by the phrase ‘I want,’ spoken with or without an object for the verb.” Surely you are familiar with that brain, having seen it up close and personal, always twitching with dissatisfaction, never at peace.
It could be that nature is simply not selecting for happiness in mammals because it isn’t useful for survival. At those times when you are feeling happy you won’t be on the alert for trouble and therefore your life will be in jeopardy. The anxious people turn out to be the lucky ones, likely to live a long life. Sure, it will be unhappy, but at least it will be long. 被缩成： the survival brain 怎么处理呢？直接用英文的方法好像不行：生存的脑袋谁看得懂？所以要加更多信息，让它清晰的连接到前面的两段。用词要一致，也要准确地反映前两段的精神。 “经优胜劣汰的考验，为生存一直挣扎的人类大脑”？
Tibetan tülku Chögyam Trungpa 对spiritual discovery 过程的描述也值得细读一下:
"Instead we explore further and further and further without looking for an answer. (…)We don't make a big point or an answer out of any one thing. For example, we might think that because we have discovered one particular thing that is wrong with us, that must be it, that must be the problem, that must be the answer. No. We don't fixate on that, we go further. "Why is that the case?" We look further and further. We ask: "Why is this so?" Why is there spirituality? Why is there awakening? Why is there this moment of relief? Why is there such a thing as discovering the pleasure of spirituality? Why, why, why?" We go on deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, until we reach the point where there is no answer. (...) At that point we tend to give up hope of an answer, or of anything whatsoever, for that matter. (...) This hopelessness is the essence of crazy wisdom. It is hopeless, utterly hopeless."
| | | | Li Jie
China
Local time: 01:37
English to Chinese
James_xia wrote: Li Jie wrote:
就我对佛教的皮毛认识，“True happiness can only be found by eliminating the false idea of ‘I’ or ‘self.’Only then is the survival brain turned down and the personality fever cooled. ” 应该是说：要消除妄念“我”才能获得真正的快乐。唯有达到“无我”的境界，心才能清静，才能放下“我执”。survival brain 在中文中，我觉得应该指摒除“我”这个意念后（与世）不争的“心”。因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。我对 personality fever 的理解与 phil 相同，只是“我执”更符合佛教术语。
[修改时间: 2013-09-25 15:13 GMT] Li Jie的理解和表达看似有些‘无理’，抑或‘错位’，其实可以接受，甚至是值得赞赏的！因为它符合翻译过程对应的层次。一直以来，文学翻译之难，在于寻求译文“信、达、雅”的目标实属不易，而‘错位’对应正是达到这一标准的有效手段。不妨再回顾大家熟知的一个例子： 英文：How are you? 中文：你吃的没有？（在中国大陆，曾几何时，熟人之间见面极少有人说出“你好！”之类的日常问候语） 个人以为，翻译对应的考虑不仅有用词的语境、还有文化层次的差异，还可能考察原文所处的时代大背景。如能适时巧妙运用这样的思维转换方式，‘信’的译文自然有机会‘达’，最终通向‘雅’的翻译境界~
[修改时间: 2013-09-28 05:20 GMT]
| | | | Li Jie
China
Local time: 01:37
English to Chinese
| 谢谢QHE的质疑，让我读过全文。 | Sep 28, 2013 |
QHE wrote: Li Jie wrote:
因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。 说得不错，但是你忽略了一个最重要的东西：你没有看原文，而且断言 “原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain”
我已经看过全文， “原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain” 我想这里我讲得不够明白，我的意思是整句话是西方人对佛家思想的理解。我想佛家思想从梵文翻到英文和翻到中文的理解会有区别，对于西方人，考虑survial的问题用brain，但对于中国古人则是用“心”。在这一点上我坚持我的翻译没错。
不过，我承认我对survival 的理解有错，看过全文后我认为survival 并非指基本生存，更多的是指得失心和欲望。如phil 提供的两段文字所述。
这个实例是一种很极端的缩短照应。下面的两段： Scientists have done experiments on the standard mammalian brain and found that it is not built for happiness. It functions so that, as neurologist Melvin Konner explains, “the organism’s chronic internal state will be a vague mixture of anxiety and desire—best described by the phrase ‘I want,’ spoken with or without an object for the verb.” Surely you are familiar with that brain, having seen it up close and personal, always twitching with dissatisfaction, never at peace.
It could be that nature is simply not selecting for happiness in mammals because it isn’t useful for survival. At those times when you are feeling happy you won’t be on the alert for trouble and therefore your life will be in jeopardy. The anxious people turn out to be the lucky ones, likely to live a long life. Sure, it will be unhappy, but at least it will be long.
因此，我会将我的翻译改成要消除妄念“我”才能获得真正的快乐。唯有达到“无我”的境界，心里才不会患得患失，才能放下“我执”。
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Li Jie wrote: QHE wrote: Li Jie wrote:
因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。 说得不错，但是你忽略了一个最重要的东西：你没有看原文，而且断言 “原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain” 我已经看过全文， “原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain” 我想这里我讲得不够明白，我的意思是整句话是西方人对佛家思想的理解。我想佛家思想从梵文翻到英文和翻到中文的理解会有区别，对于西方人，考虑survial的问题用brain，但对于中国古人则是用“心”。在这一点上我坚持我的翻译没错。 不过，我承认我对survival 的理解有错，看过全文后我认为survival 并非指基本生存，更多的是指得失心和欲望。如phil 提供的两段文字所述。 这个实例是一种很极端的缩短照应。下面的两段： Scientists have done experiments on the standard mammalian brain and found that it is not built for happiness. It functions so that, as neurologist Melvin Konner explains, “the organism’s chronic internal state will be a vague mixture of anxiety and desire—best described by the phrase ‘I want,’ spoken with or without an object for the verb.” Surely you are familiar with that brain, having seen it up close and personal, always twitching with dissatisfaction, never at peace.
It could be that nature is simply not selecting for happiness in mammals because it isn’t useful for survival. At those times when you are feeling happy you won’t be on the alert for trouble and therefore your life will be in jeopardy. The anxious people turn out to be the lucky ones, likely to live a long life. Sure, it will be unhappy, but at least it will be long. 因此，我会将我的翻译改成 要消除妄念“我”才能获得真正的快乐。唯有达到“无我”的境界，心里才不会患得患失，才能放下“我执”。
这么读起来，颇有几分禅味。
| | | | Kemp9
China
Local time: 01:37
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | 但是brain(可译为大脑或心）前有survival，后有turn down( | Sep 28, 2013 |
Li Jie wrote:
就我对佛教的皮毛认识，“True happiness can only be found by eliminating the false idea of ‘I’ or ‘self.’Only then is the survival brain turned down and the personality fever cooled. ” 应该是说：要消除妄念“我”才能获得真正的快乐。唯有达到“无我”的境界，心才能清静，才能放下“我执”。survival brain 在中文中，我觉得应该指摒除“我”这个意念后（与世）不争的“心”。因为中国古人一向认为思想、意识和脑是没什么关系的，反而和心有关，所以很多表示思想意识的词都以“心”为偏旁。原文是西方人的解读，所以用brain。我对 personality fever 的理解与 phil 相同，只是“我执”更符合佛教术语。
[修改时间: 2013-09-25 15:13 GMT]
这样意译是没错的，但是brain(可译为大脑或心）前有survival，后有turn down(类似于 the cpu (brain) of a computer(human） functions in a low level.),所以为了忠于原文应该译为大脑。不过你的提法很好，谢谢！
| | | | Kemp9
China
Local time: 01:37
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | 作者应该是还没说完，引诱读者往下读 | Sep 28, 2013 |
Li Jie wrote:
不过，就原文来看，作者似乎是另一种意思。
[Edited at 2013-09-25 09:17 GMT]
我没有看原文链接内容，因为太多，我一下搜不到相应章节。不过从“The only problem with that formulation is that once the “I” or “self ” has been eliminated, then there is no one around to enjoy the feeling of happiness. ”也可以看出作者的态度：既然连“我”都可以没有，那么享受快乐的主体可以不存在，那还要快乐做什么？这其实是对“无我”的误读，“无我”是指别把自己看得太要紧，就不会有“贪嗔痴”这些不好的东西。 [修改时间: 2013-09-25 23:39 GMT]
一楼有链接：
Excerpt from “Crazy Wisdom Saves the World Again!” by Wes "Scoop" Nisker:
http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=wU2HzHjzWdwC&printsec=frontcover&hl=zh-CN#v=onepage&q&f=false
作者应该没有误读，作者应该是还没说完，引诱读者往下读，他是学佛的。我想应该是接下来解释消除关于自我的错误观点后，实际就是万物归一的想法，所以也不矛盾。
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